Mac Brazel & The Debris. An Opinion.

[Bally002]

@"Bally002" 
Good Night my friend, sleep well. 

Thank you.  Went to bed soon after and woke up at 8.30am.  Oops.  Off to work.

Please check a PM.

Kind regards,

Bally:)

[BIAD]

How would a balloon of any sort leave a "gouge" in that soil? I was stationed out at Ft Bliss/WSMR many moons ago and
had to dig many a-fighting position all over that area of West Texas/Southern New Mexico. The ground is hard as heck.
Does not easily give way.  

A dirt poor rancher in the area would not have had the means or inclination to fill anything in. Shoot, it might even collect
some water in the future. If the Army did it, they would have had to bring in equipment. My knowledge of the events do
not extend to accurately  say one way or the other. 

If the gouge existed, why would they even bother filling it in right away?

I agree with you, I've been to Roswell in the summer months and even dug at the soil in the desert!
(A Limey in some place hot?!)


Again, the confusion created by the many players that came into the Roswell incident has unearthed quotes and comments
that can not only place a reader into the realms of dubious interest, any attentive researcher could also be disheartened as
they wade through the only evidence at hand. Namely, newspaper reports.

You'll have noticed in the Telex message above, words are abbreviated for speed purposes and names of those involved
are just outright misspelled. But one of the main problems in the newspaper industry is competitiveness and with that, the
need to out-do the latest report on a subject.

For example: (from the Telex webpage)
"JD/FRR
     LETS HAVE TEXT ARMY ANNOUNCEMENT FASTEST.  JUST PUT ON AS TEST AN LET ROLL IN QUOTES.
DX NJ317P7/8"

Here's a couple more examples from the Press. Sheriff Wilcox becomes 'Wilson' and the public information officer for
Roswell Army Base, Walter Haut morphs into 'Warren Haught'!



With this verve, comes a requirement of 'other facts'... a different view on a well-covered story. The 'Disk' announcement
was one thing, but the later repudiation by the Army would threaten an end to this titillating tale. The trend at the time was
flying saucers and news-outlets all over the US were posting them in the run-up to the Roswell crash.

Now we have an officially-sanctioned story that within hours, could deflate like a busted weather balloon! What would you
add to the account to entice the reader to stay with your paper? If a Reporter or someone wanting to be part of the media
-promoted excitement does inject an extra tidbit to a tale that isn't entirely correct, it's prudent to also append a comment
that makes sure the fabrication cannot be tested.
One makes a gouge... and then fills it in. No gouge.
....................................................................

But then again, maybe the gouge existed. If such sensitive material from a highly-controversial political project was on
private property, wouldn't it be responsible for an official body to collect the debris and repair any damage caused?
It would allay any annoyances from the owner and those directly involved and indicate the matter was over and all was
well. Expediency is the word they use these days!

The again, the same suggestions would be made if something out of the ordinary careened into a desert -whether it
was V2 rocket or croissant-shaped vehicle. By the way, if someone was physically or mentally effected by such an
experience, wouldn't it be shrewd to 'flatten' any bumps in the favoured narrative by working on that 'someone'?
This may explain the 'containment' of Mr Brazel.

Mac Brazel had said that he had twice before found weather balloons on the ranch. However, this was the only time
he drove to Roswell and alerted the Sheriff of his find. Why was that...? Wilcox couldn't give him any fiscal reward and
there's never been any indication that Roswell's Police Officer had knowledge of where the owners of this supposed
balloon were situated.
In fact, all the top-brass of Wilcox's local Army Base were kept out of the loop in regards of a classified balloon-born
experiment!
....................................................................

So the mid-June date may have originated with the Sheriff's statement at the time? 

It seems thay way, but at the time it may have been unimportant to those who had no chips in the game. However to imply
the media were in on an ongoing story -something that required a reader to purchase their newspaper on the next day for
possible updates, the idea that the story was almost a month old doesn't work well in the narrative!

The McBoyle portion I was unaware of. According to Sleepy's statement, McBoyle heard Brazel say he had towed in a craft(?)
from his range, "sometime ago". And who knows how long that means. A few hours? A day? A week?

That's true, the latter 'un-sculpted' accounts relate that Brazel was with a neighbour's son (Billy Dee Proctor) riding horseback
to perform his mundane duties when he came across the damaged terrain and scraps of a foil-like substance.
There's no mention of dragging a chunk of material to a nearby out-building and nothing in these lesser-used accounts to indicate
Marcell, Cavitt and Brazel went to a shed to acquire any debris.

And Brazel was kept at the base. No doubt. He had a ranch to run. A herd to tend to. There is no way he would just up and leave
his livelihood unattended to stay at the 'guest quarters' for no good reason. 

I want to reword my opinion on him being detained and the Mogul balloon stuff. It would not have mattered if it had been an hour
or a month, he would get questioned for some time. He would also be "debriefed". Evidence of that is the retraction on the radio.
Still, I do not believe it was even a Mogul balloon. 

I agree with you.

On July 8, Brazel was escorted by the military to the offices of the Roswell Daily Record, where he gave a press interview.
The story he told them was a bit different from what he had told before. In this new version, Mac was with his son and not
the Proctor kid when they discovered the debris on June 14, but that he was in such a hurry that he ignored it.

See...? In the this rendering, a whole family have been disconnected from any direct attachment to the narrative.
The Proctors are now mere second-hand players who only saw what Brazel showed them, not what what was on the desert floor.
One could say that the rancher -or someone leaning heavily on this rancher, was 'keeping it in the family'.

Then by retaining Brazel over a month after originally finding the scraps of the harmless apparatus and during the same time
that General Blanchard, General Ramey, Major Marcel, the counter-intelligence guy Cavitt and Public Information Officer Haut
had no idea of the significance of the secret project, the media furore around the small town in Chavez County would abate due
to starving the story of oxygen.

After shaming himself and his family at the newspaper, Brazel's military escorts then led him out to a car and drove him to
the KGFL Radio Station. People who saw him leave the newspaper office said he kept his head down and pretended not to
see any of his friends.

And rightly so, he had issued a statement that said the US Army had captur... oh wait. That wasn't Brazel, that was the
people who were now dragging him to conduits of broadcast to say it was all a hoax and his word meant nothing now.


At KGFL, he was allowed to go in alone while his escorts waited outside. He went in and began telling Frank Joyce the same
story he had told at the Record. Joyce interrupted him and asked why he was telling a different story than he had told earlier.
Joyce explained later in an interview that Brazel became agitated and said, "It'll go hard on me."
At the end of the interview, the rancher went back out to where his military escort was waiting, and they took him back to the
base.

When he was finally released by the military, Brazel refused to say anything other than that he had found a weather balloon.
He privately complained of his treatment by the military, who he said wouldn't even let him call his wife in Tularosa.

He later told his children that he had taken an oath not to talk about the incident and considering it was supposedly just a
downed weather-balloon of an importance unknown to anyone outside of the classified project, one would wonder why such
treatment from the military was used.

Within a year, he moved off the ranch and back into Tularosa. There he opened a refrigerated meat locker rental establishment
where people could rent lockers to keep their frozen meat in those days of few home freezers.
He died in 1963.
....................................................................

But if this was just a traditional strategy-based operation of one party dowsing the truth -or lies, of another, then why did
Major Jesse Marcel change sides and describe what he saw that was similar to Brazel's description?

[ABNARTY]

I appreciate you taking the time and effort to put together such an in-depth analysis. 

Sorry if I am asking so many questions and offering so many unsolicited opinions.   

The more I think about all this, the more I see a smoke screen of confusion and obfuscation. Pretty soon people are chasing the smoke versus what lies behind. As intended.

[BIAD]

I appreciate you taking the time and effort to put together such an in-depth analysis. 

Sorry if I am asking so many questions and offering so many unsolicited opinions.   

The more I think about all this, the more I see a smoke screen of confusion and obfuscation.
Pretty soon people are chasing the smoke versus what lies behind. As intended.

You're welcome, it's been an interest of mine for a long time!
The points of view you propose are based on a rational desire to answer questions that are ignored by those who
bring such accounts of all sorts of phenomena to the public's attention.

The 'smoke screen' you mention is where certain parties sometimes can perform actions that they wish the same
public to not know about, yet many times, such fog is merely a conveniently-created aspect composed of alluring
wordage and poor investigating from those who should carry the same logical intuition show display.

[BIAD]

I was watching a show on the subject. Can't remember the name. 

They did discussed two sites in conjunction with the event.  

Supposedly, there indeed was a craft. The first location, the ranch, was where the craft initially hit the ground and then bounced back up in the air to finally come down some distance away. Sort of a skip at high speed. 

This is consistent with the "two incident" hypothesis. It also provides a gouge with debris. It provides a reason why the 509th Commander did what he did. It was something very unusual way out of his lane and he thought he was doing the right thing. That is until the hammer came down from above. Then we get weather balloon and I was mistaken.

This one... the 'Flats' on the Plains of San Agustin? The only problem with these accounts is it causes any interested party
to 'buy into' the notion that around early July, a series of events happened that build up to be the background story of the
Roswell incident and counters any evidence Brazel offered that he'd found his debris before the Fourth of July.

This account is a tricky one, a civil engineer with  the US Soil Conservation Service was allegedly examining the area
when he came across a damaged 'disc' of around twenty-to-thirty feet in diameter. The exact location has always been
a little vague, but the nearest approximation is between Datil and Horse Springs.

Grady L. 'Barney' Barnett supposedly told his friends in July of 1947 of the discovery on an area of the Plains of San Agustin,
New Mexico. But some researchers believe what Barnett saw was a downed V2 rocket that was launched the same day.
The date Barnett said he was at the Flats was 4th of July 1947, but for his account to jibe with others involved, Barney Barnett
had to discover the crash site on the third of July because that was the date quoted by a man and his wife who were also there.

Ranch owners Jack Bruton and his wife heard whatever it was come down and went to investigate the crash site at the Flats.
They reported that they found what they described as a pile of twisted metal and Mr Bruton believed that -even though the
wreckage had no markings or signs of a pilot, it was an airplane of some sort.
Oddly enough, because of this presumption, the rancher never reported the find to the Police.

But another rancher named Marvin Ake did state to researchers of seeing the military removing two truckloads of debris
from the same general area. But that doesn't mean any iniquitous behaviour was going on at the Plains. During one the
many tests of the White Sands launch site, a V2 rocket actually veered off from its plotted course and ended-up making
a crater near the town of Ciudad Juarez in Mexico.

The military were quick in collecting that material and the crater it made was about the same size Barnett estimated of his
alleged find. Dirty laundry and all that!
................................................................

Another story of a crash -I posted is on Page One of this thread. The Capitan Mountains report.

Again, these dated stories demand the whole incident happened within a day-or two of the Roswell incident and even though
this conflicts with The Roswell Daily Record's own interview when William 'Mac' Brazel was marched to the newspaper's offices,
it remains as a mainstay in the lore of the flying saucer crash.

It's important, it's obvious and it's down-right sectarian.

Brazel states -even after his short 'vacation' on the Army Base, to W.E. Whitmore of local radio station, Jason Kellahin of
Albuquerque's bureau of the Associated Press and a wire technician and photographer, Robin D. Adair, that he found the
debris on 14th June.

This is crucial because of -not just the standard narrative that Brazel supposedly discovered then strewn material on the
Fourth of July with Billy Proctor, it means something has changed within the culture of telling the story... something that
either shows Mac Brazel has screwed-up in his story or that the change in timing was relevant to that story.

Granted, the Proctor boy was now out of the picture and replaced by Brazel's son Vernon, but the bullet to shoot down the
'crumpled dishpan'-comment from McBoyle had been fired to distance the initial date that Brazel said he'd found the debris
to a closer-date connecting the military's official involvement and the media's presence.

Some stuff was dumped in an out-building or under some bushes for 23 days. The remains of a highly-sensitive experiment
was lost for 23 days -plus an unknown amount of time from the original release of the equipment. Twenty-four days later,
the military become involved and twenty-five days later, the same military announce they've 'captured' a flying disc.

The next day it's all deflated and it's not until decades later, that we're told a predecessor of a project known as 'Skyhook'
(Project Mogul) was the cause. What a crappy tale...! Where's the 'juice'? Where's the description of this supposed crashed
spaceship? How can we sell newspapers headlining about month-old foil in some cowboy's barn?!!


The cowboy's barn.

So the public are offered a 'sexier' incident, an immediate response by those of authority and a rational explanation of what
happened. The arithmetic we feel more at home with.


Mac Brazel had became confused, the media initially leapt to a conclusion based on an official confirmation of Brazel's belief
and then a total retraction is given by the same authority that -not only took any evidence to prove Brazel and their first
announcement were correct, but also felt the need to have the mundane material flown somewhere else for further analysis.

All of this was -and still has been accepted by the established media and nobody mentions the quotes from the 1995 Media
Defence Report from the US Air Force where they mention on Page 18:

'...Although members of the 509th possessed high-level clearances, they were not privy to the existence of MOGUL;
their job was to deliver nuclear weapons, not to detect them.

'...When the Soviets exploded their first atomic device in August 1949, the experimental Project MOGUL was not in
operation. However, the explosion was detected by a specially-equipped Air Force B-29 aircraft...'



On the bright-side, at least you now know what it feels like to be screwed with your pants on!

[F2d5thCav]

@"BIAD" 

Great thread and well written.

Cheers

[BIAD]

Oh silly me, I was wrong along with a rancher from New Mexico.