Bin Laden: Alive vs. Dead

[Mystic Wanderer]

I am posting two different articles: One states "Proof" Bin Laden died in 2001, and another stating there exists documents showing he is still alive.

So, let's debate this and see if we can figure out who is misleading us.

First article:

Proof Bin Laden Died in 2001

All sources are from the mainstream news, many of which have since been “scrubbed” from the internet.
2000 to September 2001: Reports Emerge of bin Laden Dying From Kidney Disease

In March 2000 the Chicago Tribune reports that an Afghan witness and “Western intelligence official” say bin Laden is suffering from severe kidney and liver failure.
Link: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/…
This story was also picked up by CBS News in 2000, who outright lead with the title that “Bin Laden Reported to be Dying” from “kidney disease.”
Link: http://web.archive.org/web/20010212010328/..
In July 2001, the South Asia Analysis Group reports: “Bin Laden, who suffers from renal deficiency, has been periodically undergoing dialysis in a Peshawar military hospital with the knowledge and approval of the Inter-Services Intelligence, (ISI) if not of Gen.Pervez Musharraf himself.”
Link: http://web.archive.org/web/20011007021426/…

September to November 2001: bin Laden is Trapped in Afghanistan, Unable to Receive Kidney Treatments
In September 2001, PBS’ Frontline interviews the former general counsel for the CIA, mentioning reports from 1998 that the DEA found out Osama bin Laden was undergoing kidney dialysis with a doctor in Peshwar. They mention further that the DEA wanted to poison bin Laden through his dialysis machine, but the CIA allegedly rejected this due to the ban on assassinations.
Link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/…

In November 2001, The Guardian is reporting that French intelligence officials say bin Laden was flown to Dubai for kidney treatment in July of 2001, where he also met with several CIA agents and the head of Saudi intelligence. This story is also picked up by several French newspapers.
Link: http://www.theguardian.com/world/…

In his first interview since 9/11, in November 2001 bin Laden talks to a Pakistani newspaper and claims that his “kidneys are all right” and denies visiting a hospital in Dubai the previous year (note that he may have visited one in Pakistan). In the same interview he also asserts, clearly lying, that he has “nuclear weapons.”
Link: http://dawn.com/news/5647/…

December 2001: bin Laden is Dead, Buried in Afghanistan In December of 2001, the New York Times reports on “high-level murmurings that bin Laden is dead.”
Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/…

That same day,citing a Taliban source, Fox News reports that bin Laden has died due to an “untreated lung complication” from kidney disease. About 30 “close associates” reportedly attended bin Laden’s funeral in the Tora Bora region of Afghanistan. A source concludes that the U.S. government and other forces are in a “mad search operation” but will never be able to locate the now-dead bin Laden, buried in an unmarked location.
Link: http://www.foxnews.com/story/2001/…

Late December 2001 to March 2002: bin Laden’s “Death Video” is Released In late December of 2001, after reports of bin Laden’s funeral, a new video appears of a gaunt, sickly Osama bin Laden. The London Telegraph reports, verbatim: “The recording was dismissed by the Bush administration yesterday as sick propaganda possibly designed to mask the fact the al-Qa’eda leader was already dead.” One aid further concludes that the video was created earlier in the event bin Laden is dead, who by December of 2001 was so heavily surrounded he would have been unable to escape to obtain kidney dialysis.
Link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/…

At this time CBS news also runs a story on bin Laden receiving kidney disease treatments in Pakistan the week before 9/11. Link:Osama bin Laden Near Death in 2002 (from Dan Rather CBS); US Government bin Laden LIE In January of 2002, The Guardian reports that the president of Pakistan speculates that bin Laden is now dead of untreated kidney disease based on video and photographs of a gaunt-looking bin Laden.
Link: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/jan/19/…

In January of 2002, based on his analysis of video and photographs of bin Laden from December 2001, CNN’s Dr. Sanjay Gupta says that bin Laden seems to be having renal failure. He notes kidney dialysis is expensive, and suggests bin Laden would need help in obtaining medical treatment.
Link: http://edition.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/…

In March 2002, the BBC reports on an interview with bin Laden’s wife, who speaks of bin Laden in the past tense, notes his failing kidney and frequent use of pills and other medicines. She says she has not seen her husband since September 2001, but holds out hope that he is still alive: “I feel deep inside me that he is still alive.” She also notes that bin Laden’s wish was to die in Afghanistan and nowhere else: “He never spoke to me about his intention to leave Afghanistan and always wished to die there. He told me once that if he ever left Afghanistan, it would be to meet his Creator.” She also says that bin Laden “always suffered from kidney and stomach pains and that he “told me once that he was going to Pakistan for treatment.”
Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/monitoring/…

In March and April of 2002, U.S. officials downplay the threat of bin Laden, with Rumsfeld even saying the bin Laden threat has been “neutralized.” Even Bush, called out for rarely mentioning bin Laden in 2002, admits: “We haven’t heard from him [bin Laden] in a long time… I don’t know where he is. I really just don’t spend that much time on him, to be honest with you.” Link: Bush: Truly not concerned about bin Laden (short version) In May 2002, ABC News reports on a new spliced-together tape from unknown time periods in which bin Laden appears “about the same” (that is, sickly-looking) as in the tape from December 2011. ABC News also says they have “learned intelligence reports indicate bin Laden had received a kidney transplant in Pakistan,” but do not know when.
Link: http://abcnews.go.com/International/…

July 2002: FBI Chief Says bin Laden is Most Likely Dead; Nothing from bin Laden Since December 2001 In July 2002, the BBC reveals a bombshell: the FBI’s counter-terrorism chief Dale Watson says bin Laden is ‘”probably dead.” Conveniently, bin Laden’s followers’ claim that bin Laden will “not make more video statements until his group launches another attack on the United States.”
Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/…

In July 2002, CNN reports that bin Laden’s close bodyguards were captured in February of 2002, but not bin Laden. The article also quotes mentions some high-level officials: “Some high-level U.S. officials are already convinced by such evidence that bin Laden, who has not been seen or heard from in months, is dead.”
Link: http://web.archive.org/web/20021204040117/…

In July 2002, Time Magazine reports that “intelligence officials are not certain whether Osama bin Laden is alive or dead” but that “they have found a tantalizing document that suggests he was living at least as recently as the last days of December [of 2001].”
Link: http://content.time.com/time/magazine/…

In July 2002, The New York Times runs another article on how Osama bin Laden is likely dead. The author notes how unusual it would be for bin Laden, known for his constant desire for media attention, would be silent for over half a year.
Link: http://www.nytimes.com/…

October 2002: Intelligence Officials Confirm bin Laden is Dead; bin Laden’s Will is Released Also in October 2002 the D.C.-based news service The World Tribune, citing Israeli intelligence sources, reports that the United States and Israel have concluded that bin Laden died in Afghanistan in December 2001. They note that additional bin Laden messages are “probably fabrications,” and that bin Laden’s heir has been chosen.
Link: http://web.archive.org/web/20021205223313/…

The president of Afghanistan also concludes that bin Laden is probably dead: “The more we don’t hear of him, and the more time passes, there is the likelihood that he probably is either dead or seriously wounded somewhere.”
Link: http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/…

In October 2002 CNN reports that U.S. intelligence officials have obtained Osama bin Laden’s will, which is dated December 14, 2001 (approximately the same date as has been reported bin Laden’s funeral in Tora Bora by Fox News and other outlets). CNN also reports that there has been no evidence of bin Laden since December of 2001.
Link: http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/…

2002 Onwards: Efforts to Target bin Laden are Closed Down; bin Laden = “Elvis” In 2004, the LA Times quotes Donald Rumsfeld (who mixes up Hussein with bin Laden) as admitting: “We’ve not seen him [bin Laden] on a video since 2001.”
Link: http://newsmine.org/content.php?ol=9-11/binladen/…

In 2006 the New York Times reports the CIA had officially closed down the unit focused on capturing bin Laden the previous year.
Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/04/washington/…

In 2006, U.S. and Pakistani officials say they have not received any information about bin Laden in years: “no tips from informants, no snippets from electronic intercepts, no points on any satellite image.” The article rehashes the December 2001 video of bin Laden as the most recent evidence (other than a second-hand claim from 2003) of bin Laden’s existence. Some commandos are now giving Osama bin Laden the codename “Elvis.”
Link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/…

The available reports overwhelmingly supports the view that bin Laden died of kidney failure in December of 2001. We have mainstream news reports from a variety of sources, and zero credible evidence since then, as admitted by top level officials. Even if you believe the official story, the evidence very strongly suggests some entity (either the CIA, Saudi Royal Family, the Pakistani government, or all the above) helped bin Laden survive long enough via medical treatments to be killed at a later point in time. This very well could be the “one big lie” Seymour Hersh has mentioned in The Guardian recently.

Source

And now for the second article:

BIN LADEN IS “ALIVE AND WELL IN THE BAHAMAS"

Snowden, who lives as a fugitive in Russia after leaking documents about the NSA’s surveillance programs has made some previously unreported allegations about the famous terrorist, Osama Bin Laden, during an interview with the Moscow Tribune.

According to him, not only is Bin Laden still alive, but he is living a lavish lifestyle in the Bahamas, thanks to regular payments from the CIA.
“I have documents showing that Bin Laden is still on the CIA’s payroll,” claims Edward Snowden. “He is still receiving more than $100,000 a month, which are being transferred through some front businesses and organizations, directly to his Nassau bank account. I am not certain where he is now, but in 2013, he was living quietly in his villa with five of his wives and many children.”
The terrorist leader Osama Bin Laden was supposedly killed by United States Navy SEALs on May 2 2011, is still alive in a luxurious Nassau suburb.

Mr. Snowden says the CIA orchestrated the fake death of the former leader of Al Qaeda, while he was actually transported with his family in an undisclosed location in the Bahamas.

“Osama Bin Laden was one of the CIA’s most efficient operatives for a long time,” claims the famous whistleblower. “What kind of message would it send their other operatives if they were to let the SEALs kill him? They organized his fake death with the collaboration of the Pakistani Secret services, and he simply abandoned his cover. Since everyone believes he is dead, nobody’s looking for him, so it was pretty easy to disappear. Without the beard and the military jacket, nobody recognizes him.”
Mr. Snowden says that the documents proving that Bin Laden is still alive will be integrally reproduced in his new book, expected to be released in September.
A subject of controversy, Snowden has been variously called a hero, a whistleblower, a dissident, a patriot, and a traitor, for his revelations of thousands of classified documents.

Edward Snowden was hired by an NSA contractor in 2013 after previous employment with Dell and the CIA. In the month of June of the same year, he revealed thousands of classified NSA documents to journalists.
The US government filed espionage charges against him shortly after his revelations were made public. He has been living under asylum in Moscow, after fleeing the US for Hong Kong in the wake of the leaks.
On July 28 2015, the White House has rejected a “We the People” petition of nearly 168,000 signatories, to pardon him.

This Article Source

My Source Page

I posted this thread so people can see how the media reports totally different views on one subject.  This causes confusion in the public, and takes away credibility from the truth... whichever one it happens to be.


So, in this case, who do you believe is telling the truth, and who is lying?

(In either case, it would show that the Navy Seals did not kill Bin Laden in May, 2011, as reported... if true.)

[BIAD]

Page noted.... I'll write something soon, Ma'am!

[guohua]

Mystic, That is a Great Thread!

[BIAD]

Mystic, That is a Great Thread!

I agree and it deserves some decent debate.

[guohua]

Mystic, That is a Great Thread!

I agree and it deserves some decent debate.

Mr. G. Here. Hi everyone  :minusculehi:

I'm feeling better, thank you.
My wife takes good care of me with TCM treatments.

Now, Mystic Wanderer You're Just   you have a Really Awesome Thread here and I hope it gets so much more attention.
BUT, I have to disagree with Mr. Snowden, he's correct and he's  accurate on about 75% of what I've read and I Personally Know about.

Now it's my belief Bin Laden is Dead, Very Dead!
I know I can't give you proof or my documentation.
Still, it's a great thread and it makes people think.
Thank You, I hope everyone disagrees with me and has more to add to prove me wrong, So come on Rogues, Contribute and let's have a drink 

[BIAD]

Mr. G. Here. Hi everyone  :minusculehi:

I'm feeling better, thank you.
My wife takes good care of me with TCM treatments.

Now, Mystic Wanderer You're Just   you have a Really Awesome Thread here and I hope it gets so much more attention.
BUT, I have to disagree with Mr. Snowden, he's correct and he's  accurate on about 75% of what I've read and I Personally Know about.

Now it's my belief Bin Laden is Dead, Very Dead!
I know I can't give you proof or my documentation.
Still, it's a great thread and it makes people think.
Thank You, I hope everyone disagrees with me and has more to add to prove me wrong, So come on Rogues, Contribute and let's have a drink 

Good to hear you're well, Mr. G.

I always had problems with the rumour that Bin Laden's family were flown out
of the US on the very day of 9/11 and of course, the way no body was offered
when they allegedly got him.

I've not researched this subject at all, so forgive my ignorance.
But... I stopped trusting 'Big Guv'ment' a long time ago!

[Mystic Wanderer]

I'm feeling better, thank you.

My wife takes good care of me with TCM treatments.

Thank you, Mr. G.  It's good to see you on the thread.  

No doubts here that Ms. G. is taking very good care of her man.   :smallwink:

I was trying to make a thread that would bring more people, so I hope I have at least sparked some interest for others to get involved.  We'll see.

Do you think Bin Laden died in 2001, or do you think the Navy Seals got him?

[guohua]

I'm feeling better, thank you.

My wife takes good care of me with TCM treatments.

Thank you, Mr. G.  It's good to see you on the thread.  

No doubts here that Ms. G. is taking very good care of her man.   :smallwink:

I was trying to make a thread that would bring more people, so I hope I have at least sparked some interest for others to get involved.  We'll see.

Thank You Mystic, I know you Care about R-N as much as the rest of us.
We also Know you're trying you're a Great Assist To R-N. I wish we had a Mass Email system that allowed me to send out BIAD Banners and your Threads and others threads like 727Skys Humor and Gordi's pictures of his vacations and his little Green Car to our Members that aren't with us as much.
Thank You. 
Sorry, I'm ranting.

[BIAD]

At a vulnerable time immediately after the towers fell, I can understand that a Government
can have the media put out all sorts of information that may be not as truthful as usual.
(I am not being sarcastic regarding the 'truth' comment!)

But even when a leader requests the masses to be patriotic and offers them the name of
their enemy, I would expect that some wiser-heads in the background would begin to
create a scenario that would benefit their political people when it comes to the end-game.

The media could've certainly been used in a better way to explain the secretive-like
way that Osama Bin Laden was supposedly killed, extracted and disposal of the corpse.
But I can also understand the military restrictions that would make a 'full expose' of the full
episode, difficult.

I would certainly not expect a first-world country to illegally enter another country, capture
the wanted culprit and parade him bound and bleeding from the back of a cart... we don't
do that anymore, do we?!

But, even after a night-scope-kitted elite group efficiently invaded Bin Laden's supposed
compound in Pakistan and riddle him with bullets, I would think that regardless of the fallout
from some Eastern realms, there would images to sate the people who were still reeling
from the loss of their loved-ones in the twin towers destruction.
I would've expected something.

When it was stated that his body was tossed into the ocean during the return to Base
from an helicopter, my first thought was that these imaginary 'wiser-heads' had missed
an opportunity to put to rest any prospective conspiracy theories surrounding the whole
matter and for the 'norms'...give a boost to their leader's ratings.

Some may say that the US took a higher path and ignored the opportunity to display the
blood-soaked body of the guy who master-minded such a simple plot, that it out-witted
the most powerful country in history.

This morally-linked idea certainly has merit and would go a long way diplomatically to stifle
any problems with -not only the country Osama Bin Laden was snatched from, but any
religiously-associated groups of the east that had it's feathers ruffled by the invasive act.
Apparently, the Islamic burial tradition is more important in these situations.

One could argue that the lack of evidence regarding locating and killing Bin Laden may be
attached to how the information to discover where he was hiding was acquired.

CIA black sites and the infamous Guantanamo Bay detention camp tend not to be seen
favourably in the eyes of the media's customers due to certain methods of interrogation.
The Public Relations people would know that.

So... is he living in the Bahamas with his family or did the mastermind behind the destruction
of the twin towers end-up as fish-food?
Research, me-thinks!

[BIAD]

There was a time when the word 'research' meant getting of one's ass and visiting
libraries, Town Halls and places that stored literary information.
Then the internet came along!

On the back of my last post, where I commented that 'wiser-head's missed an opportunity'
when it came to showing the public that the Government had killed the man who was No.1
on their most-wanted list.

In my opinion, they actually did the correct thing.
The tangled ball of string of world politics is an area where the assuaging of a public's
hurting may seem important to the average observer, but when the possibility of war,
sanctions and destructive retaliation are on the table, spreading self-back-slapping
information can place those same observers in a place where their basic, accepted
lifestyles can change dramatically.
It's just not done.

So, maybe it was a shrewd tactic to not make a 'big thing' of how military forces sneaked
into Pakistan -after an alleged former Pakistani intelligence officer had revealed Bin Laden's
whereabouts, and perforated his ass.

Think about who was involved and how those conduits of information and lives of those
involved could be compromised even today, and the judicious decision to be quiet on the
subject makes more sense.

I would also like to add that when something 'natural' occurs or happens because someone
did this and the reaction was that, the satellite information that accompanies it tends follow
in a certain stream.

I agree that killing somebody cannot be placed under the heading of 'natural' but if
one peruses today's available information about what happened back then and who was
involved, there's only two destinations one can arrive at.

One: The military killed Osama Bin Laden.
Two: He's alive and well and the Powers-That-Be are surpassing themselves in the art
of subtlety for the first time in generations.
Like this:
'The Man Who Killed Osama bin Laden... Is Screwed' (2013)
Esquire:

That piece was done three years after the incident, any 'damage-control' doesn't usually
go on that long! But, I know that since the JFK assassination, some might say that the
Government have gotten better at nurturing the public narrative and the example above
could be argued to be proof of that.

I would also argue that too much of the 'Oh, it was an accident' can leave scars of cowardice
that other parties can use for their own agenda. Whether at home or overseas.
We fight the fights we can win, even John Wayne would've told you that!
........................

I don't trust mainstream media. Never have and never will.
They do sing from the same hymn-sheet and whether it's because of a 'NWO' directive
or the degradation of Journalistic skills, many believe -as I do, they tend to deliver purile,
condescending reports that wouldn't look out of place in an episode of 'The Little House
On The Prairie'!

But when something happens... and just happens, someone who has the dark gift for
camouflaging what truly occurred is not needed, the river of information will just flow in
a natural course.

A perfect example is the recent incident in Hillary Clinton's campaign.
There's no way to reasonably spin her health situation, except pump her full of drugs and
push her back out onto a podium. Which is a panicking act of damage control.

Were the Clinton team negligent with the media handling of the situation...? Yes, certainly.

If they'd put it out that Hillary Clinton had come down with pneumonia and would be off the
campaign-trail for a few days, I would guess most voters would have internally accepted
that this was a prudent act of someone being sensible.
Which is a helluva way to grab senior votes, by the way!

But they didn't, they schemed to avert the public's eyes away from the footage of her wobbling
and collapsing into a vehicle, with a half-assed walkabout outside Hillary's daughter's apartment
(that also houses a medical facility!)... and attempted to write the whole-thing off as a little
bout of pneumonia.
A little bout of pneumonia...! Sheesh!

The damage was done because the PR team didn't do their jobs properly and now they're
on the back-foot with the burden to do more deflecting and deceiving.
........................

The killing of Osama Bin Laden will always be deemed dubious because we never got the
chance to hurl rotten vegetables at his bruised and bleeding body. I believe serious politics
came into play after the Seal team did what they're good at and any ideas of hauling Bin Laden
along Main-street enduring the boos and jeers, was never part of a plan.

Maybe all world-changing criminals should be dealt with this way? I don't know.
I hope this part of the debate is okay...? I've been reasonable, I hope?!

Now, the next bit!

[guohua]

@"BIAD" 
Excellent synopsis, Very Well Put!