WH encourages gender reassignment surgery for minors

[Infolurker]

So, you can't have cigarettes or booze until you are an adult but they are now encouraging and promoting children and their parents to have minors undergo radical life changing surgery and hormone blockers. 

Biden's agencies have also made it clear that chopping parts off your children is not considered child abuse and anyone who says it is are hateful bigots. 

What the hell has happened? How are the insane in such a position of power that the unbelievable is now happening before our eyes?

White House messaging released today says that "early" transgender surgeries, hormone treatment, and affirmations are "crucial" for the health of kids and teens

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-a...ne-therapy

The NCTSN document goes out of its way to assure the public that the use of gender-affirming methods such as surgery and hormone replacement are not child abuse – most likely in response to recent policy decision in Texas that made such treatments illegal.

Biden told the parents of transgender children that "affirming your child's identity is one of the most powerful things you can do to keep them safe."

Biden also indicated that his administration would fight state laws that limit how transgender athletes may compete

Such state laws are "simply wrong" and "hateful," Biden said, adding that his administration is "standing up for transgender equality in the classroom, on the playing field, at work, in our military, in our housing and health care systems – everywhere.

[Freija]

Just stop it.

Rouge Nation is a nice neighborhood that doesn’t need to be infiltrated with the same hysterical fearmongering trans and homophobic ignorant bullshit circle-jerking that is tolerated and prevalent at ATS.

Your thread title is pure clickbait and absolutely factually incorrect. Did you even read either document linked or did you just blindly believe what Faux News told you to believe or did you just see the traction this thread was getting at ATS and decided you could be one of the popular kids too?

Here is what the document actually says:



Founded on evidence based research going back more than a century, a partial list of organizations supporting the affirming care model is as follows:



Cross-sex hormone therapy is rarely started before the age of 16 and the effects are largely reversible. As far as genital reconstruction surgery goes, only somewhere between 10% to 15% of trans individuals undergo this procedure and it is only in very rare and unusual circumstances that it is performed on anyone under 18 years of age and contrary to popular opinion (i.e. lies, ignorance and bullshit), rates of dissatisfaction and regret are extremely low. (0% to 4% noted in multiple research studies)

If you know better or have some legitimate professional citations to back up your claims, I would be interested in hearing them otherwise you are just spreading misinformation and hysteria.

Time and time again, gender-affirming medical therapy and supported social transition in childhood have been shown to correlate with improved psychological functioning for gender-variant children and adolescents. I can personally say that without what is now called gender affirming care as a child and adolescent, I would not still be alive 67 years later writing this.


Politics has no business in healthcare or interfering the decisions made by families and medical professionals, full stop.

[Grace]

This is utterly horrifying, for real. If anything causes me to fear my grandchildren attending public schools or me to generally fear the government it's this. 

This is more than just horrifying .. there simply are no words to describe a government like this.

[GeauxHomeLittleD]

Here's the thing: I have no problem with puberty blockers if the child has undergone intense psychiatric screening and it is found to be appropriate for the individual child's situation. I do not even have a problem with hormonal therapy if the child having gone through years of testing and therapy and has reached an age of mental maturity where it is apropriate.

What I DO have a problem with is doctors handing out puberty blockers to small children like candy and/or at parent's urging without proper testing and therapy. A small child might want to be a girl one week and a dinosaur the next without certain adult interference. 

I also have a BIG problem with any sort of sexual reassignment surgeries before the adult age of consent. You do YOU but no "chopping" of parts before you are an ADULT who has been through years of psychological testing, therapy and have actually lived full time as the desired gender without feeling weird about it.

There are reasons that transitioning is a long and arduous process- it weeds out people who are easily manipulated. the mentally ill and people who THINK they are trans but actually are not.

We also are having what I call a "woke parent problem" these days. Kids play pretend a lot and some of these parents in a desire to appear more "woke" jump on the "my kid is trans" train when most will likely outgrow it if parents would butt out. Kids want to please their parents and "woke" parents (themselves mentally ill in a lot of cases) want attention and social media "likes" and it can get waaay out of hand sometimes.

We also have a problem with kids jumping on the "trans train" as well because the "cool kids are doing it" and being the little attention seekers they are they want to identify with what is popular without realizing they could be fucking up their lives. 

[beez]

The OP brings up a good point.

When you are old enough to drink, smoke, when you are an adult, then you can make decisions that may impact your entire life.

My Masters degree in in Developmental Neurobiology.

And chemical changes made during a time of growth on the human brain (neurotropic compounds, hormones) can have long-lasting, even permanent impacts.

It's funny and sad that they are actually ignoring the SCIENCE to push some agenda.

[Snarl]

When you are old enough to drink, smoke, when you are an adult, then you can make decisions that may impact your entire life.

Help me, Beez.  I still wanna be Capt Kirk when I grow up.

[beez]

When you are old enough to drink, smoke, when you are an adult, then you can make decisions that may impact your entire life.

Help me, Beez.  I still wanna be Capt Kirk when I grow up.

And when you grow up we can talk about it.

In the mean time, you can still wear your Captain's shirt and carry a phaser.

[Freija]

This is utterly horrifying, for real.

Except it is not real and really ridiculous to think it is. It is pure rightwing hyperbolic shit-stirring at best and spun in a direction to make you seem horrified. Think of the poor chillens – the government wants to cut their junk off. Oh my! This is media based manipulation at its finest or worst depending on your point of view.

All that is being shown or endorsed here is support for evidence based science. Some kids are trans and they are going to be trans regardless of government or religion or unsupportive families. There is no denying that fact as much as some would wish it so and even if some legislative bodies (cough-Republicans) seem bent on making the lives of these kids as miserable and intolerable as possible which is little more than promoting a made up culture war to pander to their base. It is absolutely disgusting to use the health and lives of children as political pawns.

This is more than just horrifying .. there simply are no words to describe a government like this.

Like what? A government that wants to look out for all kids not just the ones that are straight and not transgender (and probably white and Christian)?  From my perspective what is horrifying is that the overreaching government thinks it knows best when it comes to health decisions made between parents, their doctors and their children.

What I DO have a problem with is doctors handing out puberty blockers to small children like candy and/or at parent's urging without proper testing and therapy.

It is simply a conservative wet dream to think this is happening. Puberty suppression isn’t prescribed without a long-lasting and intense pattern of gender non-conformity or gender dysphoria nor without counseling and evaluation and they aren’t given until puberty has started and reached Tanner stage 2 or 3, usually around age 11 or 12. Most kids wanting puberty blockers are unable to attain them either due to lack of familial support, lack of insurance and lack of available providers.

Without insurance puberty blockers can cost between $12,000 to $18,000 per year for injections and $18,000 to $20,000 plus hospital costs for an implant that lasts about 18 months. It is reported that fewer than 20% of patients receiving puberty blockers have them covered under insurance.

Article Link- Two classes of trans kids are emerging – those who have access to puberty blockers, and those who don’t

I also have a BIG problem with any sort of sexual reassignment surgeries before the adult age of consent. You do YOU but no "chopping" of parts before you are an ADULT who has been through years of psychological testing, therapy and have actually lived full time as the desired gender without feeling weird about it.

I think it is important to make a distinction between sex reassignment surgery, which simply isn’t as widespread as people think it is and other gender affirming procedures. Except in very rare and unique cases, genital surgery is never performed on someone younger than 18. Presently, where there is underage “chopping” is breasts or “top surgery” which is being done on some 15/16 year old natal girls (trans boys) when their distress level is extreme and it should be noted that trans boys outnumber trans girls 4 to 1 these days, just the opposite of past numbers. I should also point out that the majority of FTMs don’t even have “bottom surgery”.

Article Link-A flawed agenda for trans youth

My Masters degree in in Developmental Neurobiology.

And chemical changes made during a time of growth on the human brain (neurotropic compounds, hormones) can have long-lasting, even permanent impacts.

And you’ve extensively studied this particular subject yourself and reviewed current findings on all of this? I’m guessing you completed your masters before GnRH agonists were even invented and are you implying negative effects? Maybe we should outlaw all puberty because those pesky hormones can have long lasting consequences?

Focusing on potential harms ignores the fact that wellbeing is broader than physical health alone. I began a late and mild natal puberty at 15½ and began taking estrogen a year and a half later at 17 and my brain seems to have developed okay, developed okay, devluped yokay. Shit!  

[beez]

This is utterly horrifying, for real.

Except it is not real and really ridiculous to think it is. It is pure rightwing hyperbolic shit-stirring at best and spun in a direction to make you seem horrified. Think of the poor chillens – the government wants to cut their junk off. Oh my! This is media based manipulation at its finest or worst depending on your point of view.

All that is being shown or endorsed here is support for evidence based science. Some kids are trans and they are going to be trans regardless of government or religion or unsupportive families. There is no denying that fact as much as some would wish it so and even if some legislative bodies (cough-Republicans) seem bent on making the lives of these kids as miserable and intolerable as possible which is little more than promoting a made up culture war to pander to their base. It is absolutely disgusting to use the health and lives of children as political pawns.

This is more than just horrifying .. there simply are no words to describe a government like this.

Like what? A government that wants to look out for all kids not just the ones that are straight and not transgender (and probably white and Christian)?  From my perspective what is horrifying is that the overreaching government thinks it knows best when it comes to health decisions made between parents, their doctors and their children.

What I DO have a problem with is doctors handing out puberty blockers to small children like candy and/or at parent's urging without proper testing and therapy.

It is simply a conservative wet dream to think this is happening. Puberty suppression isn’t prescribed without a long-lasting and intense pattern of gender non-conformity or gender dysphoria nor without counseling and evaluation and they aren’t given until puberty has started and reached Tanner stage 2 or 3, usually around age 11 or 12. Most kids wanting puberty blockers are unable to attain them either due to lack of familial support, lack of insurance and lack of available providers.

Without insurance puberty blockers can cost between $12,000 to $18,000 per year for injections and $18,000 to $20,000 plus hospital costs for an implant that lasts about 18 months. It is reported that fewer than 20% of patients receiving puberty blockers have them covered under insurance.

Article Link- Two classes of trans kids are emerging – those who have access to puberty blockers, and those who don’t

I also have a BIG problem with any sort of sexual reassignment surgeries before the adult age of consent. You do YOU but no "chopping" of parts before you are an ADULT who has been through years of psychological testing, therapy and have actually lived full time as the desired gender without feeling weird about it.

I think it is important to make a distinction between sex reassignment surgery, which simply isn’t as widespread as people think it is and other gender affirming procedures. Except in very rare and unique cases, genital surgery is never performed on someone younger than 18. Presently, where there is underage “chopping” is breasts or “top surgery” which is being done on some 15/16 year old natal girls (trans boys) when their distress level is extreme and it should be noted that trans boys outnumber trans girls 4 to 1 these days, just the opposite of past numbers. I should also point out that the majority of FTMs don’t even have “bottom surgery”.

Article Link-A flawed agenda for trans youth

My Masters degree in in Developmental Neurobiology.

And chemical changes made during a time of growth on the human brain (neurotropic compounds, hormones) can have long-lasting, even permanent impacts.

And you’ve extensively studied this particular subject yourself and reviewed current findings on all of this? I’m guessing you completed your masters before GnRH agonists were even invented and are you implying negative effects? Maybe we should outlaw all puberty because those pesky hormones can have long lasting consequences?

Focusing on potential harms ignores the fact that wellbeing is broader than physical health alone. I began a late and mild natal puberty at 15½ and began taking estrogen a year and a half later at 17 and my brain seems to have developed okay, developed okay, devluped yokay. Shit!  

Have there been any studies looking at the long-term  effects of neurotropics on developing brains?

If so, show them.

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

[Grace]

@"Freija" As it's a free and public forum you're free to respond to me all day long but after the last time I attempted an adult discussion with you went poorly when I was last here, I am not going down that road again. If you noticed I haven't said two words to you since I've been back, and other than these words here, I don't have anything further to say to you at all.

[DesertBorn]

This is utterly horrifying, for real.

Except it is not real and really ridiculous to think it is. It is pure rightwing hyperbolic shit-stirring at best and spun in a direction to make you seem horrified. Think of the poor chillens – the government wants to cut their junk off. Oh my! This is media based manipulation at its finest or worst depending on your point of view.

All that is being shown or endorsed here is support for evidence based science. Some kids are trans and they are going to be trans regardless of government or religion or unsupportive families. There is no denying that fact as much as some would wish it so and even if some legislative bodies (cough-Republicans) seem bent on making the lives of these kids as miserable and intolerable as possible which is little more than promoting a made up culture war to pander to their base. It is absolutely disgusting to use the health and lives of children as political pawns.

This is more than just horrifying .. there simply are no words to describe a government like this.

Like what? A government that wants to look out for all kids not just the ones that are straight and not transgender (and probably white and Christian)?  From my perspective what is horrifying is that the overreaching government thinks it knows best when it comes to health decisions made between parents, their doctors and their children.

What I DO have a problem with is doctors handing out puberty blockers to small children like candy and/or at parent's urging without proper testing and therapy.

It is simply a conservative wet dream to think this is happening. Puberty suppression isn’t prescribed without a long-lasting and intense pattern of gender non-conformity or gender dysphoria nor without counseling and evaluation and they aren’t given until puberty has started and reached Tanner stage 2 or 3, usually around age 11 or 12. Most kids wanting puberty blockers are unable to attain them either due to lack of familial support, lack of insurance and lack of available providers.

Without insurance puberty blockers can cost between $12,000 to $18,000 per year for injections and $18,000 to $20,000 plus hospital costs for an implant that lasts about 18 months. It is reported that fewer than 20% of patients receiving puberty blockers have them covered under insurance.

Article Link- Two classes of trans kids are emerging – those who have access to puberty blockers, and those who don’t

I also have a BIG problem with any sort of sexual reassignment surgeries before the adult age of consent. You do YOU but no "chopping" of parts before you are an ADULT who has been through years of psychological testing, therapy and have actually lived full time as the desired gender without feeling weird about it.

I think it is important to make a distinction between sex reassignment surgery, which simply isn’t as widespread as people think it is and other gender affirming procedures. Except in very rare and unique cases, genital surgery is never performed on someone younger than 18. Presently, where there is underage “chopping” is breasts or “top surgery” which is being done on some 15/16 year old natal girls (trans boys) when their distress level is extreme and it should be noted that trans boys outnumber trans girls 4 to 1 these days, just the opposite of past numbers. I should also point out that the majority of FTMs don’t even have “bottom surgery”.

Article Link-A flawed agenda for trans youth

My Masters degree in in Developmental Neurobiology.

And chemical changes made during a time of growth on the human brain (neurotropic compounds, hormones) can have long-lasting, even permanent impacts.

And you’ve extensively studied this particular subject yourself and reviewed current findings on all of this? I’m guessing you completed your masters before GnRH agonists were even invented and are you implying negative effects? Maybe we should outlaw all puberty because those pesky hormones can have long lasting consequences?

Focusing on potential harms ignores the fact that wellbeing is broader than physical health alone. I began a late and mild natal puberty at 15½ and began taking estrogen a year and a half later at 17 and my brain seems to have developed okay, developed okay, devluped yokay. Shit!  

I have two issues with the current gender debate.   There definitely is a ‘fad’ factor involved.   I hear so many concerned parents and grandparents talking about their daughters that are identifying as ‘non-binary transexual’ and so many are upset, distraught and asking ‘huh?’.   There is no cool factor in straight and white, while EVERY other category gets special recognition and support.   The numbers dont add up.  How many of these teens are truly trans?  Or are they just wanting to join the cool club?  

The other problem I have is bio men in bio womens spaces.   Sports, restrooms, prison.  Women have been assaulted, raped and injured or murdered by bio male criminals posing as transwomen.  

These two arguments need to be resolved by the LGBTQ community, or acceptance from Americans, particularly parents, isnt going to be easily accomplished.   Its a bridge too far.

[Ninurta]

I'm going to take a Biblical approach here, something I rarely ever do in public, and come down firmly on the side of God, or at least what the Bible says about it.

It doesn't appear to say what most folks seem to think it does.

First, I dunno why God makes one person thisaway and another person thataway. Only God knows that, and God ain't telling - I don't have the mind of God, nor am I consulted in God's decisions, and think it would be foolish of me to claim I am. I don't write policy for God.

What we find actually written, however, is at odds with what most folks are saying is written. Biblically, going all the way back to Genesis, parents have the right of life and death over their own children. Not other folks' kids, just their own. Abraham didn't snatch up some other goat herders son to sacrifice up on the mountain when he was told to sacrifice one - he snatched up his own son. Now it's true that God provided an alternate sacrificial critter at the last minute, but the basic decision was just between Abraham, his son, and God. No one else had any say in it.

Likewise, in these cases at hand here, the decision is between the child, the parents, and their doctors. No one else. Not government, not the news agencies, not me, not you, not "consensus". No one but those previously mentioned people. They are closest to the situation, and If I look at all, I'm just an outsider looking in. As they used to say around here, I ain't got no dog in that fight, so it ain't none of my damned business, and my opinion doesn't count.

If it doesn't affect me, then I've no say in it. I don't like government telling ME what I can and can't do, so how could I support government telling THEM what they are and are not allowed? Would that not be hypocrisy? The only time government ought to step into the matter at all is if some other set of parents were trying to tell me how to raise my OWN child. See, that would then affect ME, and other options would suddenly come into play.

Likewise with religion and the religious - their god can tell THEM what to do, but it ain't gonna tell ME what to do. I've got my own God for that sort of thing, don't need nor want theirs.

The news? Hell, the news don't even run it's own world, how in the hell can it run mine? Or yours?

I think it would be a better world if this or that batch of little heathens just stopped trying to run the lives of all the other little heathens, and let them take up their own steering wheel through life. Whether the decisions they make are ultimately good or bad makes no difference to me - it ain't MY life they are improving or wrecking, whichever the case may be.

I reckon I'm just heartless like that. I've had to live with my own decisions in life, both the good and the bad ones, and don't see that anyone else is any better or any worse than I am - they have the right to live with their own decisions, too, without my interference if it ain't asked for and it ain't affecting me.

It ain't MY job to look after THEIR kids. That is on the respective parents.

ETA: there is another side-facet to this subject that is sure to come up sooner or later - that of "preferred pronouns". That debate is some bullshit. Folks have the right to identify themselves any way they like - I don't care if they want to self-identify as a transcendental attack zebra -  but they do NOT have the right to insist that I or anyone else go along with their delusion by ignoring the evidence before us in favor of their fantasy. See, that is where it crosses over into affecting ME, by insisting that I play along against my own judgement. That just ain't gonna happen. If the Emperor looks naked to me, I'm not gonna tell him what a fine and pretty new set of clothes he is wearing.

Well, not unless he's pretty when he's naked, too, which is pretty damned unlikely in my eyes. Either way, I'm not going to mistake a birthday suit for Brooks Brothers or Calvin Klein, nor am I going to call it what it ain't. That would be a betrayal of my own intellect. To thine own self be true.

.

[Grace]

I'm going to take a Biblical approach here, something I rarely ever do in public, and come down firmly on the side of God, or at least what the Bible says about it.

It doesn't appear to say what most folks seem to think it does.

First, I dunno why God makes one person thisaway and another person thataway. Only God knows that, and God ain't telling - I'm don't have the mind of God, nor am I consulted in God's decisions, and think it would be foolish of me to claim I am. I don't write policy for God.

What we find actually written, however, is at odds with what mot folks are saying is written. Biblically, going all the way back to Genesis, parents have the right of life and death over their own children. Not other folks' kids, just their own. Abraham didn't snatch up some other goat herders son to sacrifice up on the mountain when he was told to sacrifice one - he snatched up his own son. Now it's true that God provided an alternate sacrificial critter at the last minute, but the basic decision was just between Abraham, his son, and God. No one else had any say in it.

Likewise, in these cases at hand here, the decision is between the child, the parents, and their doctors. No one else. Not government, not the news agencies, not me, not you, not "consensus". No one but those previously mentioned people. They are closest to the situation, and If I look at all, I'm just an outsider looking in. As they used to say around here, I ain't got no dog in that fight, so it ain't none of my damned business, and my opinion doesn't count.

If it doesn't affect me, then I've no say in it. I don't like government telling ME what I can and can't do, so how could I support government telling THEM what they are and are not allowed? Would that not be hypocrisy? The only time government ought to step into the matter at all is if some other set of parents were trying to tell me how to raise my OWN child. See, that would then affect ME, and other options would suddenly come into play.

Likewise with religion and the religious - their god can tell THEM what to do, but it ain't gonna tell ME what to do. I've got my own God for that sort of thing, don't need nor want theirs.

The news? Hell, the news don't even run it's own world, how in the hell can it run mine? Or yours?

I think it would be a better world if this or that batch of little heathens just stopped trying to run the lives of all the other little heathens, and let them take up their own steering wheel through life. Whether the decisions they make are ultimately good or bad makes no difference to me - it ain't MY life they are improving or wrecking, whichever the case may be.

I reckon I'm just heartless like that. I've had to live with my own decisions in life, both the good and the bad ones, and don't see that anyone else is any better or any worse than I am - they have the right to live with their own decisions, too, without my interference if it ain't asked for and it ain't affecting me.

It ain't MY job to look after THEIR kids. That is on the respective parents.

ETA: there is another side-facet to this subject that is sure to come up sooner or later - that of "preferred pronouns". That debate is some bullshit. Folks have the right to identify themselves any way they like, but they do NOT have the right to insist that I or anyone else go along with their delusion by ignoring the evidence before me in favor of their fantasy. See, that is where it crosses over into affecting ME, by insisting that I play along against my own judgement. That just ain't gonna happen. If the Emperor looks naked to me, I'm not gonna tell him what a fine and pretty new set of clothes he is wearing.

Well, not unless he's pretty when he's naked, too, which is pretty damned unlikely in my eyes. Either way, I'm not going to mistake a birthday suit for Brooks Brothers or Calvin Klein, nor am I going to call it what it ain't. That would be a betrayal of my own intellect. To thine own self be true.

.

Going by your logic we'd have to do away with every single law concerning child abuse. 

Second, what happens, if we keep our nose out of it, when a divorced man with full custody of his kid loses custody of said kid when mommy dearest wants to dress said little boy up like a girl and chemically prevent said boy from going into puberty. 

The above happened, and it happened in Texas of all places. A man lost custody of his own child because the non-custodial parent wanted to pretend that a pre-pubescent child can make adult decisions.

If we don't speak out now, how long before teachers are convincing little boys they are girls (already occuring), and the state removes children from God fearing home's in order to butcher them (not yet occurred but it's next on this road)?

[Ninurta]

Going by your logic we'd have to do away with every single law concerning child abuse. 

Not all of them, I think, but lots of them, for sure. None of my business how someone else raises their kids, and none of their business how I raise mine. The laws protecting kids from third party predators would of course remain under the framework I've laid out above. There would necessarily have to be new laws instituted to protect families from the predators at CPS, of course. That's a whole new class of predator that operates under color of law.

Second, what happens, if we keep our nose out of it, when a divorced man with custody of his kid loses custody of said kid when mommy dearest wants to dress said little boy up like a girl and chemically prevent said boy from going into puberty. 

The above happened, and it happened in Texas of all places. A man lost custody of his own child because the non-custodial parent wanted to pretend that a pre-pubescent child can make adult decisions.

I dunno what would happen in most folks worlds in that scenario, but I sure as hell know what would happen in my own. . All I know is that it would not be an issue if the government didn't poke it's nose in in the first place. Since when has any government had the right to re-arrange families as it sees fit? That may be legal, but it ain't moral. When something becomes "law", it is no longer a "right". Rights are not enforced by laws.

As my police instructor used to tell us, "there is right, there is wrong, and then there is 'the law', and none of those relate to one another."

Now, in your scenario, we have a case where two parents of the same child are at odds as to how that child should be raised, If the law steps in at all, then the decision ought to come out on the conservative side - not politically "conservative", but conservative in the sense of "conservation" - do the least amount of permanent, irreversible change possible until the child itself is of an age to make it's own legal decisions.

OR - they could just put everyone in a boxing ring and let 'em duke it out, winner takes all.

I don't have sufficient information on the case to go further than that. For example, how old was the child? What were it's natural inclinations? Was one or the other parent behaving out of self interest rather than interest in the welfare of the child? Clearly one or the other must have been, but without further information, I can't determine which one that was, and I refuse to make a purely emotion driven determination in the matter of someone else's business.

.

[GeauxHomeLittleD]

@"Freija" 

What I DO have a problem with is doctors handing out puberty blockers to small children like candy and/or at parent's urging without proper testing and therapy.

It is simply a conservative wet dream to think this is happening. Puberty suppression isn’t prescribed without a long-lasting and intense pattern of gender non-conformity or gender dysphoria nor without counseling and evaluation and they aren’t given until puberty has started and reached Tanner stage 2 or 3, usually around age 11 or 12. Most kids wanting puberty blockers are unable to attain them either due to lack of familial support, lack of insurance and lack of available providers.

Without insurance puberty blockers can cost between $12,000 to $18,000 per year for injections and $18,000 to $20,000 plus hospital costs for an implant that lasts about 18 months. It is reported that fewer than 20% of patients receiving puberty blockers have them covered under insurance.

Article Link- Two classes of trans kids are emerging – those who have access to puberty blockers, and those who don’t

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. There are absolutely doctors out there prescribing puberty blockers for the asking, even just regular family practitioners. I can agree that in most cases insurance wont cover the costs but there are too many custody disputes happening because of it these days to state it is rare. Times, they are a changin'.

I also have a BIG problem with any sort of sexual reassignment surgeries before the adult age of consent. You do YOU but no "chopping" of parts before you are an ADULT who has been through years of psychological testing, therapy and have actually lived full time as the desired gender without feeling weird about it.

I think it is important to make a distinction between sex reassignment surgery, which simply isn’t as widespread as people think it is and other gender affirming procedures. Except in very rare and unique cases, genital surgery is never performed on someone younger than 18. Presently, where there is underage “chopping” is breasts or “top surgery” which is being done on some 15/16 year old natal girls (trans boys) when their distress level is extreme and it should be noted that trans boys outnumber trans girls 4 to 1 these days, just the opposite of past numbers. I should also point out that the majority of FTMs don’t even have “bottom surgery”.

Article Link-A flawed agenda for trans youth

While I agree that "bottom surgery" is rare before adulthood on this I'm also going to have to disagree: "Top chopping or building" should also wait until legal adulthood. Falsies and binding could and should be utilized if necessary until such a time. No surgeries of this kind should be allowed until the subject is legally able to sign on the dotted line for themselves. If their distress is so extreme that they cannot wait to make such a serious change maybe they require better psychiatric care until they reach the age to legally decide such things for themselves.

Just to note: I don't agree with breast enhancement, nose jobs or ANY plastic surgery for those who have not reached physical and mental maturity, Trans people are no exception.

[Ninurta]

The OP brings up a good point.

When you are old enough to drink, smoke, when you are an adult, then you can make decisions that may impact your entire life.

My Masters degree in in Developmental Neurobiology.

And chemical changes made during a time of growth on the human brain (neurotropic compounds, hormones) can have long-lasting, even permanent impacts.

It's funny and sad that they are actually ignoring the SCIENCE to push some agenda.

I agree with this. Most kids are not emotionally mature enough to make decisions like drinking, smoking, buying a gun, or voting, That's why we even have an "age of majority" to begin with.

It's also a prime reason that offspring of any species has parents - when they are young, they need guidance.

---------

Little Johnny - "Dad, I want to buy a pistol"

Dad - "well why do you want a pistol, Little Johnny?"

Little Johnny - "" So I can shoot Kenny across the street for stealing my baseball."

Dad - "No, Little Johnny, stealing a baseball is not sufficient provocation to shoot someone. You may NOT buy a pistol".

------

Small Sally - "Mom, I want to smoke and drink, so I need some smokes and a jug"

Mom - "Well why do you want to smoke and drink, Small Sally?"

Small Sally - "Coz all the cool kids are, and I wanna be cool too."

Mom "No, Small Sally. being 'cool' is an insufficient reason to destroy your health. You may NOT smoke and drink"

--------

Tiny Thomas - "hey y'all, I wanna vote in the next election"

Parents - "Well why do you want to vote, Tiny Thomas?"

Tiny Thomas - "Coz Dear Leader sucks at giving me everything I want, so I wanna vote a Communist in, coz commies get all their stuff for free"

Parents (horrified stare) - "No, Tiny Thomas, you may never live to be old enough to vote now!"

----------

So, until the kiddies are emotionally mature enough to make such decisions for themselves, it falls to the parents to guide them in their decision making, and teach them how to think so that when they ARE legally old enough, they will make proper decisions on their own. Note that I said "how" to think, not "what" to think. If a person knows how to think, he or she is entirely capable of figuring out what to think on their own, no prompting necessary.

Some kids reach emotional maturity significantly earlier than others, and some reach it significantly later than average (although that latter set has a disturbing habit of getting weeded out of life early on due to the combination of legal adulthood and poor decision making skills). So 18 as the age of majority was a collective compromise to make everything even across the board. It was the only way to make the law equitable.

Now, a number of places are walking it back to 21 for drinking, smoking, and gun purchases - but, ironically, those same folks are pushing to DROP the voting age to 16, which is a bone-headed move... a vote is a far more dangerous weapon, and dangerous to more people, than any gun, cigarette, or shot of whiskey ever even thought of being. It determines the fate of a nation, whereas the others are able to just ruin one or a few people at most.

Also on that front, I am told that the brain is the last organ to reach maturity, and continues to grow and develop until about the age of 25, so all of the other ages of majority are fairly arbitrary...

... but I personally think that they should all be arbitrarily set to the same age in all cases, and stick with it. The limbo of "I'm a legal adult but not really" ought to be eliminated - that part of life is tough enough already.

Until thy reach that age of majority, kids have their parents or caregivers to think for them and teach them how to decide on their own, and that would include the momentous decision to start lopping off body parts or tacking new ones on, as if the child were a mere Lego set.

When they are old enough to decide on their own, then let them have at it, and no judgement accrues. It ain't MY body to tinker with, it's theirs. Their decision, not mine.


.

[Ninurta]

Just to note: I don't agree with breast enhancement, nose jobs or ANY plastic surgery for those who have not reached physical and mental maturity, Trans people are no exception.

I don't agree with those surgeries for ANYONE, at ANY AGE. It's false advertising. Breast enhancement, breast reduction, nose jobs, ass implants, botox... the list goes on, but "all is vanity", and vanity ought to be illegal, too.

Good thing I'm not making their decisions for them, isn't it? If I was, any sort of cosmetic surgery would be illegal as hell.

And eating chicken. Any manner of chicken consumption would carry prison time.

And a lot of other stuff I have personal preferences about.

So it's probably a good thing I'm not prone to do other folks thinking for them and try to impose MY will on THEIR lives, now ain't it?

And they ain't gonna impose their will on mine, either.

Live and let live.

Bet there are folks out the glad I ain't in charge of the planet now!

.

[beez]

@"Ninurta" 

I don't have to have a recent degree to grasp the concept of "Cascade" where one hormone, protein triggers another which affects another which enables and/or disables the production of another protein/hormone.

It's "woke" science when everyone is just looking at things superficially and not in depth or for any great length of time.

Climate change is a perfect example.  People scream about global cooling or warming because it's been cooler or warmer for the past few years.

They neglect to look at the age of earth in the billions of years.

[Freija]

Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your point of view, I'm about to start a massive weekend long work project and will have little time to respond. Here's what I got for now:

Have there been any studies looking at the long-term  effects of neurotropics on developing brains?
If so, show them.

I will if you show me studies on the long term effects of the 561 million doses of Covid-19 vaccine that have been administered in the US? Lol!

Puberty blockers aren’t without their negatives but in trans healthcare, they are generally only administered for 2 or 3 years max. Most noticeably in the research data are potential effects on bone mineral density but more recent studies indicate that once GnRH agonists are discontinued either the ensuing natal puberty or a course of cross-sex hormones reverses this condition. Also noted is a lack of genital development which may complicate future vaginoplasty outcomes should a person go down that road in the future.

The point is though, despite potential risks, they are outweighed by the benefits in terms of psychological and quality of life improvements not to mention a marked reduction in suicidal ideation.  

Do I think they should be available on asking? No. Do I think all gender non-conforming/incongruent kids should take puberty blockers? Not without a thorough evaluation by a multi-disciplinary team of medical professions prescribed on a case-by-case basis.

If they’ll all post, here’s some reading on the subject:

Hormone treatment to halt puberty in transgender adolescents is safe and effective

Endocrine Treatment of Gender-Dysphoric/Gender-Incongruent Persons: An Endocrine Society* Clinical Practice Guideline

Hormone therapy helps strengthen brain connections in transgender women

Pubertal blockers for transgender and gender-diverse youth

Pubertal Suppression for Transgender Youth and Risk of Suicidal Ideation

First-of-its-kind study links puberty blockers to lower odds of suicidal thoughts

Puberty Blockers: The Real Side-Effects

Is puberty delaying treatment ‘experimental treatment’?

Short-term outcomes of pubertal suppression in a selected cohort of 12 to 15 year old young people with persistent gender dysphoria in the UK

Puberty suppression in transgender children and adolescents

Bone mass in young adulthood following gonadotropin-releasing hormone analog treatment and cross-sex hormone treatment in adolescents with gender dysphoria

Bone Development in Transgender Adolescents Treated With GnRH Analogues and Subsequent Gender-Affirming Hormones

Psychological Support, Puberty Suppression, and Psychosocial Functioning in Adolescents with Gender Dysphoria

_____________

If you noticed I haven't said two words to you since I've been back, and other than these words here, I don't have anything further to say to you at all.

I’m sorry you feel that way. I haven’t said two words to you either until now so I guess that makes us even?

I only do adult discussion, with calm and rational people.

What, you don’t like some of the intentional pejoratives I used or that this is a subject that concerns me deeply and passionately? How often do you see people on the left, heck even moderates leaning a little left be addressed with the same type of language around here? Quite honestly, to be a member of this forum I overlook and put up with a lot derisive comments about those that aren’t Trump lovin’ rightwing conservatives and don’t say a damn word about it. Actually, it often feels quite masochistic.

If you can't wrap your head around why this is a serious concern for Americans who actually care about the welfare of children…

Which children? I’m sure you can’t understand why to me, this is nothing but a dogwhistle.

Admittedly, with over 220 anti-LGBTxyz bills proposed or enacted and most of them focused specifically on trans youth, I am angry, depressed and demoralized and filled with rage and disgust about organizations like the Family Research Council, The Alliance Defending Freedom, The Heritage Foundation and all the other fundamentalist and Christian Nationalist organizations buying influence in our fucked up government.

Many see the progressive left as fascists destroying the fabric of democracy when I see nothing but fascism, racism and bigotry in the authoritarian right.

Excuse me if I get a little irrational at times. No, screw that...

[beez]

@"Freija" 

You are taking a closed complex system that is already in constant flux due to growth and/or puberty, and you want to toss around inhibitors or growth factors?

It is catastrophic what that might do to a developing body, a developing mind. 


You can't perform open-heart surgery on someone who is awake, riding a bike, and eating a pizza.