Russia, NATO, and Idiots

[727Sky]

Something to ponder which I agree with about Russia and the Ukraine.. I keep thinking about Taiwan and how and why we should try and stop that invasion.. Either way though we are not dealing with third world countries, but nations that can punch back

[Ninurta]

I agree with him too.

I think that the "war hawks" agitating for war against Russia are wannabe Cold Warriors who never fought in any war, much less the Cold War. Since they were drinking after school instead of fighting the war, they never got the memo that the Cold War is long over, and are banking on most other folks not knowing it's over, either. They think simply shouting "Russia, Russia, Russia!" Will put enough fear into the masses of a nuclear conflagration (as was a real possibility during the Cold War) and light a fire under their asses to support an unwinnable war.

I also think that the War Hawks are, for the most part, Leftists who are butt-hurt that communism failed in Russia, and see that failure as a betrayal of the Internationale that Russia must be punished for.

Russia, back when it was the Soviet Union, tried to put "strategic assets" (i.e. nuclear missiles) in Cuba once before. It didn't turn out so well, and became a tense standoff that the Soviets ended up backing down from rather than risking destruction on a massive scale. Thing is, they only have a ball-less BidenHarris to contend against now, and so might git 'er done this time around, placing nuclear bombs just 90 miles off the coast of the US. Not much Distant Early Warning time in a 90 mile launch, is there? Still, it would be fair for them to do so, to muck around in the US back yard, if the US continues to insist on mucking around in THEIR back yard as we are doing. It wouldn't make me very happy, but I can see the logic and inherent fairness in it.

If they do that, they'll have to get it done in the next couple of years while BidenHarris still rules the regime here. If they don't, they risk having to contend with a US head of state after BidenHarris that may have a modicum of testicular fortitude, and give them a run for their money.

The US picked this fight by meddling in Russian affairs where they had no business meddling. After all, The progressives hate Russia because it proved the failure of Communism, and Ukraine was the money-maker for BidenHarris through Hunter, so they owe the Ukraine, and have a hard-on for Russia already. I don't owe them anything, and resent that the Progressives are trying to drag me along into their silly little war.

While we are distracted by Ukraine, I look for the CCP to complete their takeover of Taiwan. Looks almost like a plan, doesn't it? And not a plan that will favor America.

Once upon a time, right near the end of the Cold War, there was a short period of time where theere was hope for thee end of it, a dream of a more peaceful future. It was a short-lived period, nothing more than a pipe dream.



.

[ABNARTY]

Something to ponder which I agree with about Russia and the Ukraine.. I keep thinking about Taiwan and how and why we should try and stop that invasion.. Either way though we are not dealing with third world countries, but nations that can punch back

Well then, Joe and Mika need to get on the next thing smoking to Kiev and start gunning down some Russkies!

Ukraine can be an pseudo-ally and even an arms customer to some degree. But NATO? For what purpose? And Crimea? For cripes sake. 

We have zero business there. If the EU is concerned about pipelines and petroleum, let them figure it out.

[Ninurta]

Ukraine can be an pseudo-ally and even an arms customer to some degree. But NATO? For what purpose? And Crimea? For cripes sake. 

We have zero business there. If the EU is concerned about pipelines and petroleum, let them figure it out.

Exactly. Allowing Ukraine into NATO would be like Russia admitting Cuba, Mexico, or California into the Warsaw Pact.

.

[Kenzo]

Europe has  energy crisis now, and it's getting worse. Now who is the energy tzar ? Russia. 

Germany is in deep chit if war breaks, being  part of NATO,  Putin can just close the gas pipe .

Ruskies are usually bluffing with their scare tactics, they make show, move troops, use verbal threats.....at least when it's directed to any bigger military for ce.....with smaller enemys they can just attack and invade.  But to tell when are the Ruskies bluffing and when not.....that's hard to say, because they are good in bluffing 

[Ninurta]

Europe has  energy crisis now, and it's getting worse. Now who is the energy tzar ? Russia. 

Germany is in deep chit if war breaks, being  part of NATO,  Putin can just close the gas pipe .

Ruskies are usually bluffing with their scare tactics, they make show, move troops, use verbal threats.....at least when it's directed to any bigger military for ce.....with smaller enemys they can just attack and invade.  But to tell when are the Ruskies bluffing and when not.....that's hard to say, because they are good in bluffing 

My experience of Russians from long ago is that if they are screaming and blustering, rattling the world's collective cages, nothing will happen. It's only when they go quiet that something is about to get you.

.

[Kenzo]

Europe has  energy crisis now, and it's getting worse. Now who is the energy tzar ? Russia. 

Germany is in deep chit if war breaks, being  part of NATO,  Putin can just close the gas pipe .

Ruskies are usually bluffing with their scare tactics, they make show, move troops, use verbal threats.....at least when it's directed to any bigger military for ce.....with smaller enemys they can just attack and invade.  But to tell when are the Ruskies bluffing and when not.....that's hard to say, because they are good in bluffing 

My experience of Russians from long ago is that if they are screaming and blustering, rattling the world's collective cages, nothing will happen. It's only when they go quiet that something is about to get you.

.

Yes,  sounds true

I think they have build some sort of own behavior culture also, to keep neighbours in fear

[727Sky]

Wag the dog comes to mind. The political party in charge is in trouble and they know it. Stir up some patriotic fervor to go kill a commie or whoever the convenient designated enemy is etc etc... In the mean time the southern border is open and cartels are firing across the border to keep the US border guard's heads down and away from their areas of operation.

All of this has to be planned for I doubt even a smart group of people, much less the brain dead idiots in D.C. could have come up with suck a dastardly plan that seems to be working at destroying a society..

[Kenzo]

US Embassy Orders Evacuation Of Non-Essential Staff & Diplomats’ Family Members From Ukraine



Newswars


I find that litle odd, since no attack yet ...only Russia moving troops in Russia .

[F2d5thCav]

US Embassy Orders Evacuation Of Non-Essential Staff & Diplomats’ Family Members From Ukraine



Newswars


I find that litle odd, since no attack yet ...only Russia moving troops in Russia .

They don't want to wait for the shit to hit the fan before they have evacuated the families.

UK did the same.

Cheers

[Ninurta]

US Embassy Orders Evacuation Of Non-Essential Staff & Diplomats’ Family Members From Ukraine



Newswars


I find that litle odd, since no attack yet ...only Russia moving troops in Russia .

They don't want to wait for the shit to hit the fan before they have evacuated the families.

UK did the same.

Cheers

That's what I'm thinking - they didn't feel like a repeat of the botched Afghanistan withdrawal would be politically viable. There is also the propaganda fear factor to consider - "Oh noes! The US is pulling out nonessential embassy staff! Russia MUST be up to something if they are doing THAT! Everyone be SCARED, right now!" That last would fall right into line with their other propaganda attempts surrounding this situation - like their accusations against Russia of "false flag operations" when nothing has happened to BE a "false flag".

.

[727Sky]

https://www.activistpost.com/2022/01/10-...ussia.html

January 25, 2022
By Michael Snyder
Are we about to stumble into a war that nobody wants?  As I will explain below, it would be so easy to avoid a military conflict with Russia, but the people running our foreign policy have ruled out any easy solutions.  Instead, they seem absolutely determined to have some sort of a macho showdown with Russia, and that is extremely dangerous.
Sadly, these days most Americans can’t even identify our current Secretary of State, and the name “Jake Sullivan” means absolutely nothing to the vast majority of the population.  But these are the guys that are telling the senile old guy in the Oval Office what to do about Russia.
What the Russians want is not complicated.
They don’t want Western missiles in Ukraine, and they don’t want Ukraine to join NATO.

Those two requests are not unreasonable.  Just imagine how we would feel if Canada joined a military alliance with Russia and all of a sudden there were Russian missiles stationed all along the U.S.-Canadian border.
We wouldn’t like that very much, would we?
Well, that is how the Russians feel about the situation in Ukraine.
The Russians have put their requests into two draft treaties, but those two draft treaties have been firmly rejected by the Biden administration…

Speaking to reporters following talks in Geneva with his Russian counterpart Sergey Lavrov on Friday, Blinken said that the American side had given a “firm and substantive” response to two draft treaties proposed by Moscow.
“I made clear to Minister Lavrov that there are certain principles that the US, our partners and allies, are committed to defend. That includes those that would impede the sovereign right of the Ukrainian people to write their own future. There is no trade-space there – none,” he said.

If Blinken, Sullivan and the rest of Joe Biden’s national security team were actually competent, this crisis could be over by now.
But instead they have made it clear that there will be absolutely no compromises.
So where do we go from here?
The following are 10 signs that indicate that the U.S., the UK, Israel and NATO all believe that we are on the precipice of war with Russia…
#1 The U.S. State Department has issued a formal travel advisory warning that Americans should stay out of Ukraine.
#2 The U.S. and the UK are both reducing embassy staffing levels in Kyiv.
#3 Family members of U.S. embassy personnel in Kyiv are being evacuated.
#4 Israel is planning a “mass evacuation” of Jewish people from Ukraine.
#5 CNN is reporting that as many as “8,500 US troops have been put on heightened alert for a possible deployment to Eastern Europe”.
#6 The New York Times is reporting that the Biden administration is also considering sending “warships and aircraft” into the region.
#7 Other western European nations are also preparing to send forces to eastern Europe…

Denmark is sending a frigate and deploying F-16 warplanes to Lithuania; Spain will send warships and could send fighter jets to Bulgaria; and France stands ready to send troops to Romania.

#8 A British news source is reporting that “hundreds of military trains packed with Russian troops” have been moving into Belarus.
#9 UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson is alleging that the Russians are planning a “lightning war that could take out Kyiv”.
#10 The U.K.’s Foreign, Commonwealth & Development Office has announced that they have obtained information “suggesting that the Russian government is plotting to install a pro-Kremlin leader in Kyiv”.
Despite all of the hysteria, I personally do not believe that war will erupt immediately.
But without a doubt, the stage is definitely being set for the sort of military conflict with Russia that I have been warning about for many years.
Meanwhile, the U.S. also continues to provoke China.
This weekend, two U.S. aircraft carrier groups “began operations in the South China Sea”…

Two US aircraft carrier groups have entered the disputed South China Sea as Chinese Air Force planes continue to fly near Taiwan, which China also claims.
The US Navy says two carrier strike groups, led by the USS Carl Vinson and USS Abraham Lincoln, began operations in the South China Sea on Saturday.

If you really want to piss off China, that is a great way to do it.
In response, the Chinese sent large numbers of warplanes into Taiwanese airspace on Sunday and Monday…

On Monday, the Taiwanese Ministry of Defense said 13 Chinese planes flew into the country’s Air Defense Identification Zone. Taiwan reported 39 Chinese Air Force planes in the protected air space on Sunday.
I know that the Russians are getting far more attention from the mainstream media right now, but we are also getting dangerously close to a military conflict with the Chinese.
The national security team that Joe Biden has surrounded himself with are extremely incompetent, and they are also a bunch of warmongers.
Needless to say, that is an exceedingly combustible combination.
It is the worst national security team in the history of the United States by a wide margin, and I am entirely convinced that they are going to spark a war.
Hopefully it will not be next week or even next month, but without a doubt the clock is ticking.
These warmongers are making colossal mistake after colossal mistake, and it won’t be too long before we all pay a great price for their ineptitude.

[F2d5thCav]

@"727Sky" 

Those comments are what I mean when I say the people wanting to "solve" this crisis never want to bring out that the sovereign country that is targeted by other powers should have a say in what they want to do.  It sounds like more of the "Ukraine is Russia's colony" mentality.

To be sure, western powers (primarily EU) have been trying to pull economic power plays in Ukraine since the revolution.  German tycoons in particular are anxious to make huge fortunes off the backs of the Ukrainian people.

But we shouldn't kid ourselves that Putin is some kind of protector or rescuer for them.  He just wants his own kleptocracy to make huge fortunes off the backs of the Ukrainian people while making the West look weak and disorganized (something not at all hard to do these days).

The West has done these kind of 'deals' before.  The take-away is making deals that robbed other countries of their sovereignty didn't stop a coming war, it just put the West in a worse situation when war broke out.

Cheers

[Ninurta]

@"727Sky" 

Those comments are what I mean when I say the people wanting to "solve" this crisis never want to bring out that the sovereign country that is targeted by other powers should have a say in what they want to do.  It sounds like more of the "Ukraine is Russia's colony" mentality.

To be sure, western powers (primarily EU) have been trying to pull economic power plays in Ukraine since the revolution.  German tycoons in particular are anxious to make huge fortunes off the backs of the Ukrainian people.

But we shouldn't kid ourselves that Putin is some kind of protector or rescuer for them.  He just wants his own kleptocracy to make huge fortunes off the backs of the Ukrainian people while making the West look weak and disorganized (something not at all hard to do these days).

The West has done these kind of 'deals' before.  The take-away is making deals that robbed other countries of their sovereignty didn't stop a coming war, it just put the West in a worse situation when war broke out.

Cheers

Yup, the "Ukraine is a Russian colony" mindset is pretty much where I am. It's always been in the Russian sphere, and always will be. it's in THEIR back yard, not mine, and none of my business, no place I should get myself mired up in. Especially not when our own borders are so porous and unguarded. We got our own problems HERE, and no reason I can think of that I should concern myself with a bunch of "Undocumented Russians" violating a border way over THERE while undocumented border crashers are punching more and more holes in MY border at home.

.

[Kenzo]

Russiasn keep naval exercise in area where seems to be underwater cables ...


Map of Russian Naval Military exercise near Ireland combined with the map of undersea internet/communication cables

[F2d5thCav]

@"Ninurta" 

Yeah.  Except that isolationism won't work in today's world.

We'll get sucked in; the only questions are; how much, and now or later.

I understand people don't want the USA to get involved in that conflict.  But I suggest people to shake off this odd "Putin is so misunderstood" notion.  He's another one of many dangerous psychotics who hold power in this world.  That, combined with his desire to wind the clock backwards is going to end badly for a lot of people.

Cheers

[Ninurta]

@"Ninurta" 

Yeah.  Except that isolationism won't work in today's world.

We'll get sucked in; the only questions are; how much, and now or later.

I understand people don't want the USA to get involved in that conflict.  But I suggest people to shake off this odd "Putin is so misunderstood" notion.  He's another one of many dangerous psychotics who hold power in this world.  That, combined with his desire to wind the clock backwards is going to end badly for a lot of people.

Cheers

Of course isolationism would work, in any world... it's just that folks don't have the will to make it work any more. They're too addicted to cheap crap from China and such like baubles, and BidenHarris has ensured that we have to provide for our energy concerns by importing expensive crap from overseas instead of making it right here, as we were doing before he took office. He pushed us back into the Globalist network more firmly than we were previously entrenched in it. BidenHarris already has blood on his hands, but we ain't seen nothin' yet. He even did Germany a disservice by insuring they will be reliant on Russia for energy - the same Russia that is now rattling cages and threatening Germany to get with the program by holding their thumb on German energy. I haven't dug into it to see how in the hell BidenHarris had any say in that transaction at all - he has no business in German OR Russian deals that don't involve the US - but I bet there are some Globalists behind it.

I have no doubt that the Globalists will suck us right into the conflict, and there we agree 100%.

Of course Putin is a dangerous psychopath. Everyone with an urge to get into politics or garner power is. It's the psychopathology that draws them to it. BidenHarris, likewise, are dangerous pyschopaths, all the more dangerous because they are in over their heads, and have not a clue how to make anything work effectively. Putin may be a danger to Ukraine, but he's no danger to the US, unless we keep poking that bear with a pointy stick. There is no sign we are going to stop anytime soon. We'll eventually get him hemmed up in a corner, and from there the only way out he has is through us.

That ought to get pretty entertaining, in a deadly sort of way.

The problem is that those psychopaths rarely ever pay for their own ambition. It's the rest of the population, us peons, that suffers for it. BidenHarris are more dangerous to the US than Putin is - he has his own problems "over there" to handle.


You know, lately I've been studying up on civilization collapses. It's happened before, and will happen again. I believe it is happening right now, before our very eyes. Some of the hallmarks I've noted, from the Late Bronze Age Collapse through the collapse of the Roman Empire, the Parthians, the Babylonians, and virtually every other collapse that has occurred, was presaged by a few key factors. Overextended trade networks are a common feature, with civilizations coming to rely on others for their necessities. Now we have Globalism, the most overextended trade network in human history. We are already seeing strains and failures in the supply chains of that network.

Another feature is the weakening of the military, and over-reliance on foreign troops, "allies", and mercenaries. We are seeing those features now in the US, although I cannot speak to other nations as to where they are in that criteria. Our military is getting more and more "woke" and thus weaker, with an overemphasis on social justice issues that have nothing to do with fighting wars, and mercenaries are becoming a regular feature in our wars now. Don't get me wrong - mercenaries have their place in foreign policy, but it's not the place they have been getting increasingly thrust into. We also seem not to be able to fight a war any more without insisting on the involvement of "allies", who sometimes show themselves to be something other than.

Then there is the breakdown of law and order, and the weakening of enforcement mechanisms. We are seeing that phenomena, and the fruits therefrom, in the US right now. Police are being "defunded", and crime is rising to an all time high, particularly in urban areas. We've not seen the end of that - we haven't even seen the peak yet.

Then there is the "barbarian" factor - masses of "undocumented immigrants" who come to take over what we ourselves have become incapable of taking care of. In the LBA Collapse, it was, among others, the "Sea Peoples" who provided that impetus for collapse in the Eastern Mediterranean. At the same time, in Tollense Germany, it was someone else - no one knows who now, but there are a pile of bodies in that valley to show that it was someone. For the Babylonians, it was the Elamites and the desert tribes like the Amurru and the Habiru. The Roman Empire had the Goths, the Vandals, the Germans, the Gauls, and the Picts among others. The point is, when the wolves smell the blood, they will come, whatever the historical age or empire collapsing. We see that now in the US with the unchecked "immigration" across the southern border, and Europe is experiencing their "Barbarians" primarily from the Middle East and Africa... but it's happening all over.

Civilization collapse follows the same template we are in right now. The upside of that is that people - the ones who aren't killed in the collapse, anyhow - don't go away. They just band together in the aftermath and create a new civilization, alien to the ones that have gone before. The descendants of those of us who survive will go on, create their own new civilization, and make the same mistakes we are making now. Wash, rinse, repeat.

The only way to avoid a civilization collapse is to not be a part of the collapsing civilization. Isolationism. Since we refuse to save ourselves, the next best thing is to prepare our kids and grandkids for the next civilization to come.

Here's a video on the Late Bronze Age collapse. Most folks already know of the Roman Empire collapse, so I won't link a video for that. This one is long, about 2 1/2 hours, but full of information if you have a mind to watch it:




.

[F2d5thCav]

@"Ninurta" 

Putin may be a danger to Ukraine, but he's no danger to the US, unless we keep poking that bear with a pointy stick. There is no sign we are going to stop anytime soon. We'll eventually get him hemmed up in a corner, and from there the only way out he has is through us.

I don't agree with the 'stick poking' notion.  That gets back to the 'Ukraine as Russia's colony' viewpoint.

Arguably, the only people who may have 'poked a stick' was the government of Georgia a few years ago.  And they got hit hard for that.

But, going further back.

The situation that Russia is in today is 100% the doing of RUSSIANS while they ran the Soviet Union.  Their economy was run like crap and the management of non-Russian peoples led everyone who was part of the USSR to flee if they could so.  It was no accident that not only Ukraine, but Belarus as well, fled that 'marriage'.

We should bear in mind NONE of that was the doing of the USA or NATO.  Those other people wanted to govern themselves, and this happened while the West was still trying to figure out what was really happening east of the former Iron Curtain.

Oh, Putin's government resents the position of Russia today?  Well, maybe they should line themselves against a wall and tell the execution squad to open fire, because that is where the responsibility lies.  Not USA.  Not NATO.  Russian cock-ups from start to finish.  But NOW -- thirty years later --, the Russian government wants to say 'let's go back to 1985 and start over'.  Yeah ... right.

The propaganda is rich; such as suggesting that NATO 'misled' them about other countries joining NATO.  Two key points on this.  First, those other countries were SOVERIGN POWERS.  As such, they get to choose their foreign and domestic policies without reference to Moscow.  The other point that should be brought out is the rank absurdity of the contention of the Russian government that NATO "verbally promised" them something.  I mean, GTFO.  Let's try to go to the bank and open an account (that is, a formal relationship with the bank) on the basis of verbal agreement only.  We'd get laughed out of the building.  And relations between sovereign powers?  We can bet everything we have that agreements that mean anything at all are always in writing, and -very- tightly written at that.  There are no 'verbal understandings' among powers that contended for the control of an entire continent over a span of 45 years.

So, the only people really 'poking the bear' have been the incompetents running things in Moscow since at least the Cold War.

Ukraine's military forces won't mount any invasions of Russia.  No, the opposite has already occurred and will shortly get much worse.  And the responsibility for this situation suddenly becoming a crisis is 100% on Moscow.

How long has Ukraine been an independent power?  And NOW, SUDDENLY, this is an existential crisis for Putin's government?  Horse-sh**.  Nothing but an excuse for a Russian-prompted war because the people in Moscow don't have a clue of what to do with Russia's potential.  They are nothing but a reborn Weimar Republic, but this time, armed with nuclear weapons.

DANGER, WILL ROBINSON.

Cheers

[Ninurta]

I don't agree with the 'stick poking' notion.  That gets back to the 'Ukraine as Russia's colony' viewpoint.

Arguably, the only people who may have 'poked a stick' was the government of Georgia a few years ago.  And they got hit hard for that.

But, going further back.

The situation that Russia is in today is 100% the doing of RUSSIANS while they ran the Soviet Union.  Their economy was run like crap and the management of non-Russian peoples led everyone who was part of the USSR to flee if they could so.  It was no accident that not only Ukraine, but Belarus as well, fled that 'marriage'.

We should bear in mind NONE of that was the doing of the USA or NATO.  Those other people wanted to govern themselves, and this happened while the West was still trying to figure out what was really happening east of the former Iron Curtain.

You're absolutely right - none of it is the doing of either the US or NATO. Nor is it our problem to "fix". Another good reason for us to mind our own business, I think.

The propaganda is rich; such as suggesting that NATO 'misled' them about other countries joining NATO.  Two key points on this.  First, those other countries were SOVERIGN POWERS.  As such, they get to choose their foreign and domestic policies without reference to Moscow.  The other point that should be brought out is the rank absurdity of the contention of the Russian government that NATO "verbally promised" them something.  I mean, GTFO.  Let's try to go to the bank and open an account (that is, a formal relationship with the bank) on the basis of verbal agreement only.  We'd get laughed out of the building.  And relations between sovereign powers?  We can bet everything we have that agreements that mean anything at all are always in writing, and -very- tightly written at that.  There are no 'verbal understandings' among powers that contended for the control of an entire continent over a span of 45 years.

You're right again - I was told nearly 50 years ago by a lawyer that "a verbal contract is not worth the paper it's written on", and that is just as true today as it was then. To be honest, I don't know what kind of "verbal agreement" Putin is fantasizing about, but in any event nations do not behave like hillbillies. You cannot expect them to stick to their word, as any words nations try to pass off are generally cover fire for some nefarious under the table dealings.

So, the only people really 'poking the bear' have been the incompetents running things in Moscow since at least the Cold War.

Make no mistake, Blinken and Company are most certainly poking the bear. They appear to be trying to negotiate "from a position of strength" that they do not actually occupy, and that can go sideways in a hell of a hurry. They appear to be trying to bullshit and bravado bluster their way through, and that will bite them in the ass like it will in any other barroom brawl.

Ukraine's military forces won't mount any invasions of Russia.  No, the opposite has already occurred and will shortly get much worse.  And the responsibility for this situation suddenly becoming a crisis is 100% on Moscow.

Exactly. The responsibility is on Russia, not us, and neither is it our responsibility to clean up Russia's messes. We ain't got no dog in that fight, as they say here.

How long has Ukraine been an independent power? 

About 30 years or so I think, on paper. In reality on the ground I don't know if they ever have been. Do actual "independent powers" usually feel a need to hide behind someone else's coat tails? Not the best way to demonstrate either independence OR power to my way of thinking.

And NOW, SUDDENLY, this is an existential crisis for Putin's government?  Horse-sh**.  Nothing but an excuse for a Russian-prompted war because the people in Moscow don't have a clue of what to do with Russia's potential.  They are nothing but a reborn Weimar Republic, but this time, armed with nuclear weapons.

DANGER, WILL ROBINSON.

Cheers

Oh, no doubt, and no argument from me. Especially about the "DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!" part. We are treading a dangerous trail, and our "big stick" is really just a wet noodle, and getting soggier by the minute. I really think that if the US wanted to throw a war and invite NATO to it, they ought not to have done the evil they have done to their military, "woking" it up and running off all the actual fighters. Before we know it, they're going to have to kit up file clerks in flak jackets and point 'em east. Maybe they can "diversity train" Russia to death.

NATO seems a bit divided on the subject as well. I hear through the grape vine that Germany, which last I checked was also in NATO, is strenuously trying to prevent Poland from selling some missiles it has to Ukraine, and using the excuse that those missiles once belonged to Germany. If that is true, it's like me selling a car to my neighbor, then coming back a few years later and telling him he can't sell his own car to whomever he wants, because it once was mine. Makes no sense. I understand they are in a precarious position re: Russian control over fuel supplies, but either all in or all out - they ought to either shit, or get off the pot.

NATO is a sore spot with me, anyhow. It was formed to counter the Warsaw Pact, and when that went down the tubes, NATO no longer had a reason to be. Instead of disbanding, however, they doubled down and started recruiting members that are nowhere near the North Atlantic, like Turkey. With allies like Turkey, NATO doesn't really need any enemies.

I'm kind of glad I'm old enough to have to sit this one out. Glad, that is, until the nukes start raining on DC. Now, in all honesty, I no longer care if DC disappears in a smoking crater tomorrow, but it's all that potential fallout that has me jittery.

.

[F2d5thCav]

What I heard was that Germany told Estonia they couldn't send ex-Soviet 122-mm howitzers to Ukraine because those pieces once belonged to the East German Army.

Yeah, the German  government is owned by Russia.  Complete and total.  East Germany won the Cold War when no one was looking.

There isn't much we can do for Ukraine.

But we can for damned sure beef up the NATO presence in the -NATO- countries in that part of Europe.  No sense in projecting weakness there.  Let Putin bitch about that because he'll find some reason to bitch anyhow.  And we have to be part of it, to motivate the other NATO powers to join in.

I disagree again about 'poking the bear'.  There is no peaceful way to approach a situation like this.  There is no sense in starting World War 3 over Ukraine, but a lot of calling out has to take place, else everyone not in Europe will think "well, Putin must be correct because the West is not throwing fits".

We're not discussing a bush war in some remote area here.  This will be the first war in Europe since the Kosovo operations, and the first major war in Europe since 1945.  Putin really is moving into a new dimension with his impending invasion.  All because his bosses cocked things up 30+ years ago.

It would be ironic if China somehow slips him a surprise after making friendly faces with him.  I wonder if Moscow went with 'verbal assurances' in the case of agreements with China ... 

Cheers