Ongoing puberty suppression should be an available treatment option for non-binary ad

[Moonmagic]

I suppose they could after the age of 18 select to take Puberty Suppressions and go to the philippines and other countries and become a ladyboy.
 Filipino Ladyboys Yes that is a male or use to be. I think @"727Sky"  can vouch for Ladyboy in his area of the World.

I guess there would be reasons for a gay male to start taking those meds for money reasons.

But it is Highly Unethical for a Doctor to subscribe these meds to someone under 18 years of age and then not without a mental evaluation JMHO.

"Lady boys" is an interesting term.  They were known by another term when I was a silly sailor many years ago.  

Not being mean, as they were very pretty and it was at times very hard to tell them apart from the real 'ladies'. (early 70's)

They were polite also but I was taught to look for the adam's apple hence that was the first things I looked at whenever approached by any ladies.  Once detected I'd politely excuse myself.

Sigh.

Kind regards,

Bally.

Bottom one is very convincing! Asians are mostly pretty in general though IMO

[guohua]

@"Moonmagic"  and  @"Bally002" 
My husband was telling me about these Ladyboys when he took R&R during the Vietnam war.
He said they were very nice but forceful.  
But he said you could ask them if they are a boy or girl and they were honest.

My point of showing these pictures in this thread was that for young men in America and other countries this could be a way to get their Freak-On with a Sugar Daddy who likes to Cock Fight and they could be well off financially, just think of all the Freaks in Hollywood and the Music Industry.

Start taking these meds early and lose your muscles and grow tits shave your legs,,,, the world is Weird!

[Moonmagic]

@"Moonmagic"  and  @"Bally002" 
My husband was telling me about these Ladyboys when he took R&R during the Vietnam war.
He said they were very nice but forceful.  
But he said you could ask them if they are a boy or girl and they were honest.

My point of showing these pictures in this thread was that for young men in America and other countries this could be a way to get their Freak-On with a Sugar Daddy who likes to Cock Fight and they could be well off financially, just think of all the Freaks in Hollywood and the Music Industry.

Start taking these meds early and lose your muscles and grow tits shave your legs,,,, the world is Weird!

Yeah, I wouldn't go there, not for me! Others can do as they please.

I'm 34, and I haven't even fully figured myself out yet to be honest, so I don't know how the hell a child can be in control of, and be allowed to change themselves on a level like that? Sure when they are legal adults, I believe we should all be able to do as we please, it's nobody else's business, but children? no!

EDIT .. To add, when I say I haven't figured myself out, I mean as a person/Human because we are always growing and evolving. Not sexually or my gender, I'm a Man, I like Women *clubs a rock*

[beez]

If a pre-teen is mature enough in mind to determine their gender for the rest of their lives, then pre-teens should be able to;
Drink
Drive
Smoke
Own a gun
Vote
Get married
Have sex
Have children


If a pre-teen is not mature enough for any of the listed (above) then they should wait until they are of an age where they are mature enough.

[Antisthenes]

If a pre-teen is mature enough in mind to determine their gender for the rest of their lives, then pre-teens should be able to;
Drink
Drive
Smoke
Own a gun
Vote
Get married
Have sex
Have children


If a pre-teen is not mature enough for any of the listed (above) then they should wait until they are of an age where they are mature enough.

The issue here lies with the reasoning behind Doctors giving prepubescent children these blockers. It is done to stop puberty till the child is deemed old enough to make these decisions. If you make the child wait then the horse is out of the barn, so to speak. Once puberty has done it's thing, (making us men and women) it is very difficult to unscrew that. This is the prescient point here. To a degree, you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

[beez]

If a pre-teen is mature enough in mind to determine their gender for the rest of their lives, then pre-teens should be able to;
Drink
Drive
Smoke
Own a gun
Vote
Get married
Have sex
Have children


If a pre-teen is not mature enough for any of the listed (above) then they should wait until they are of an age where they are mature enough.

The issue here lies with the reasoning behind Doctors giving prepubescent children these blockers. It is done to stop puberty till the child is deemed old enough to make these decisions. If you make the child wait then the horse is out of the barn, so to speak. Once puberty has done it's thing, (making us men and women) it is very difficult to unscrew that. This is the prescient point here. To a degree, you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

If a doctor and parents have to make the determination, then it should wait.

Doctors and parents are condemning children to a lifetime of gender-torture based upon the intent of a pre-teen.  And pre-teens are not mentally developed enough to know.

[Moonmagic]

If a pre-teen is mature enough in mind to determine their gender for the rest of their lives, then pre-teens should be able to;
Drink
Drive
Smoke
Own a gun
Vote
Get married
Have sex
Have children


If a pre-teen is not mature enough for any of the listed (above) then they should wait until they are of an age where they are mature enough.

The issue here lies with the reasoning behind Doctors giving prepubescent children these blockers. It is done to stop puberty till the child is deemed old enough to make these decisions. If you make the child wait then the horse is out of the barn, so to speak. Once puberty has done it's thing, (making us men and women) it is very difficult to unscrew that. This is the prescient point here. To a degree, you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Aren't the blockers doing the same thing they are supposed to be stopping though? I don't know the end result but if you are blocking natural changes, are you still changing them? or does everything carry on as normal when the decision is made to stop? no side effects?

I honestly don't know @"Antisthenes"

[Antisthenes]

If a pre-teen is mature enough in mind to determine their gender for the rest of their lives, then pre-teens should be able to;
Drink
Drive
Smoke
Own a gun
Vote
Get married
Have sex
Have children


If a pre-teen is not mature enough for any of the listed (above) then they should wait until they are of an age where they are mature enough.

The issue here lies with the reasoning behind Doctors giving prepubescent children these blockers. It is done to stop puberty till the child is deemed old enough to make these decisions. If you make the child wait then the horse is out of the barn, so to speak. Once puberty has done it's thing, (making us men and women) it is very difficult to unscrew that. This is the prescient point here. To a degree, you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Aren't the blockers doing the same thing they are supposed to be stopping though? I don't know the end result but if you are blocking natural changes, are you still changing them? or does everything carry on as normal when the decision is made to stop? no side effects?

I honestly don't know @"Antisthenes"

Actually, Let me correct myself here, androgen blockers are what is being discussed. By blocking their interaction with the endocrine system you can forestall things like bone and body hair growth. You are literally blocking the mechanism that makes men, men.

I'm not sure that abswers your question but the general consensus is that the effects of blockers are completely reversible if that were undertaken

[Moonmagic]

If a pre-teen is mature enough in mind to determine their gender for the rest of their lives, then pre-teens should be able to;
Drink
Drive
Smoke
Own a gun
Vote
Get married
Have sex
Have children


If a pre-teen is not mature enough for any of the listed (above) then they should wait until they are of an age where they are mature enough.

The issue here lies with the reasoning behind Doctors giving prepubescent children these blockers. It is done to stop puberty till the child is deemed old enough to make these decisions. If you make the child wait then the horse is out of the barn, so to speak. Once puberty has done it's thing, (making us men and women) it is very difficult to unscrew that. This is the prescient point here. To a degree, you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Aren't the blockers doing the same thing they are supposed to be stopping though? I don't know the end result but if you are blocking natural changes, are you still changing them? or does everything carry on as normal when the decision is made to stop? no side effects?

I honestly don't know @"Antisthenes"

Actually, Let me correct myself here, androgen blockers are what is being discussed. By blocking their interaction with the endocrine system you can forestall things like bone and body hair growth. You are literally blocking the mechanism that makes men, men.

I see, so there would be side effects! and some potential serious ones. I think this is why I couldn't get behind it, they are essentially doing the same thing they are supposed to be blocking, changes! Those younger years are so important, and full of dramatic changes for us all, without adding to it.

[Freija]

From my experiences working with victims of abuse and asexual assault, girls and boys that are transgender are frequent targets for rape and abuse. I can see how someone would make a logical conclusion based on what they think makes sense, but in this case it is a logical fallacy. I am not saying you won't find a single person that says they are transgender because they don't feel safe and are afraid of being oppressed or raped, but I do believe the number that say that, will be few.

 
Words of wisdom from someone with experience in these matters matter. They say that only 16% to 20% of people know or have even met someone trans with most people’s knowledge coming solely what they’ve seen and been exposed to in the media, pronography and popular culture which in most cases are unfavorable representations and sound bytes or the insanity of radical trans activists’s demands and actions. Thank you for your comments.

I think the entire subject is a minefield of "ethical concerns". People are simply overcomplicating life in general, and humanity in particular, by synthesizing an ever growing number of "genders" not found in biology. Isn't life difficult and complicated enough already without all this "gender dysphoria" lunacy necessitating the manufacture of entire new genders for feelz?

Let’s unpack this a little because your views are typical for those not more familiar with this phenomenon and I think it is important to not paint with an overly wide brush for better understanding and this is complicated. I may not be smart in political matters, economics or world affairs but this subject matter, complicated as it is, is an area of interest to me and something I have studied and observed at great lengths for many years focusing mostly on gender incongruence/atypicality in children and adolescents.

Several of my dearest friends are of trans experience and through knowing them, beyond my own investigations I’ve gained an additional great deal of understanding and compassion for their plight and more significantly, this is also something that has touched my own family directly as I myself know what it is like to be seen and treated like a gender incongruent/gender non-conforming child so I consider my personal knowledge about all this above average and feel some responsibility to shed some light and firsthand knowledge in these matters for those that might be interested in learning about them. I also realize that most do not or are unwilling but I shall proceed anyway.

The term “gender dysphoria” is a conceptualization first proposed by researchers and clinicians in 1974 to explain the condition of transsexualism. In the 1960s and 1970s studies were conducted at major universities such as Johns Hopkins and Stanford to better understand what was going on with these people although early scientific research and documentation goes well back to the early 20th century initially pioneered by Prussian physician and sexologist Magnus Hirschfeld whose collective body of works was burned by the Nazis in 1933. Gender non-conforming and "trans" people have existed throughout recorded history although the serious medicalization of this condition only goes back about 100 years as the technologies became available.

I am kind of reluctant to use the concept of gender dysphoria as it has become somewhat of a catch-all phrase when in reality it is multi-faceted state with different underlying etiologies and motivations. Dysphoria itself can be described as a state of unease, discomfort and distress ranging from mildly annoying to incapacitating abject terror.  For example, some suffering with this condition may focus more on incompatibilities with gendered social roles and behaviors and matters of gendered expression while for others, on their gendered core sense of identity’s incongruence with their physical anatomy or in other words, sex dysphoria or misalignment between the mind, that’s been proven impossible to change, and the flesh. In most cases, these “dysphorias” overlap creating a cacophony of shit for those experiencing it.

However, the term is useful because most people have heard at least a little about the phenomenon although it is widely misapplied and misused and has been co-opted mainly by those in the 296 made up gender crowd to legitimize what in most cases is a matter of social expression or rebellion having nothing or little to do with classically defined legitimate transsexualism which in itself is broken down into two major categories: early onset and late onset. The point of this diatribe is to point out that while it is easy to simplify and lump everyone in the same bucket of “lunacy” because this is so foreign to most people, it is a lot more complicated than most folks realize.

Although it may seem contrary, I’ll be the first to admit I am not a fan of modern transgender ideology and activism as it has been hijacked by those with an agenda and the word transgender itself is vague and meaningless as in the sake of politically correct “inclusiveness” it includes everything under the sun and is so broad and nebulous in scope, “transgenderism” is far to varied and ill-defined to even be considered an “ism”. Attached to this “movement” is dogma and rhetoric that I find to mostly be detestable and counterproductive to those rare and unfortunate folks genuinely transsexual.

More to follow addressing additional replies and specifically puberty suppression in keeping with the topic of the OP.

I appreciate the opportunity to shed some light into all of this for those interested in learning more about it all. For those that aren't who are sharing their ill-informed comments and opinions, I understand and uphold your right to speak your mind as you feel necessary but urge you to keep an open mind. Long ago lost was TOS's motto but maybe we can continue the tradition of denying ignorance here?

[guohua]

From my experiences working with victims of abuse and asexual assault, girls and boys that are transgender are frequent targets for rape and abuse. I can see how someone would make a logical conclusion based on what they think makes sense, but in this case it is a logical fallacy. I am not saying you won't find a single person that says they are transgender because they don't feel safe and are afraid of being oppressed or raped, but I do believe the number that say that, will be few.

 
Words of wisdom from someone with experience in these matters matter. They say that only 16% to 20% of people know or have even met someone trans with most people’s knowledge coming solely what they’ve seen and been exposed to in the media, pronography and popular culture which in most cases are unfavorable representations and sound bytes or the insanity of radical trans activists’s demands and actions. Thank you for your comments.

I think the entire subject is a minefield of "ethical concerns". People are simply overcomplicating life in general, and humanity in particular, by synthesizing an ever growing number of "genders" not found in biology. Isn't life difficult and complicated enough already without all this "gender dysphoria" lunacy necessitating the manufacture of entire new genders for feelz?

Let’s unpack this a little because your views are typical for those not more familiar with this phenomenon and I think it is important to not paint with an overly wide brush for better understanding and this is complicated. I may not be smart in political matters, economics or world affairs but this subject matter, complicated as it is, is an area of interest to me and something I have studied and observed at great lengths for many years focusing mostly on gender incongruence/atypicality in children and adolescents.

Several of my dearest friends are of trans experience and through knowing them, beyond my own investigations I’ve gained an additional great deal of understanding and compassion for their plight and more significantly, this is also something that has touched my own family directly as I myself know what it is like to be seen and treated like a gender incongruent/gender non-conforming child so I consider my personal knowledge about all this above average and feel some responsibility to shed some light and firsthand knowledge in these matters for those that might be interested in learning about them. I also realize that most do not or are unwilling but I shall proceed anyway.

The term “gender dysphoria” is a conceptualization first proposed by researchers and clinicians in 1974 to explain the condition of transsexualism. In the 1960s and 1970s studies were conducted at major universities such as Johns Hopkins and Stanford to better understand what was going on with these people although early scientific research and documentation goes well back to the early 20th century initially pioneered by Prussian physician and sexologist Magnus Hirschfeld whose collective body of works was burned by the Nazis in 1933. Gender non-conforming and "trans" people have existed throughout recorded history although the serious medicalization of this condition only goes back about 100 years as the technologies became available.

I am kind of reluctant to use the concept of gender dysphoria as it has become somewhat of a catch-all phrase when in reality it is multi-faceted state with different underlying etiologies and motivations. Dysphoria itself can be described as a state of unease, discomfort and distress ranging from mildly annoying to incapacitating abject terror.  For example, some suffering with this condition may focus more on incompatibilities with gendered social roles and behaviors and matters of gendered expression while for others, on their gendered core sense of identity’s incongruence with their physical anatomy or in other words, sex dysphoria or misalignment between the mind, that’s been proven impossible to change, and the flesh. In most cases, these “dysphorias” overlap creating a cacophony of shit for those experiencing it.

However, the term is useful because most people have heard at least a little about the phenomenon although it is widely misapplied and misused and has been co-opted mainly by those in the 296 made up gender crowd to legitimize what in most cases is a matter of social expression or rebellion having nothing or little to do with classically defined legitimate transsexualism which in itself is broken down into two major categories: early onset and late onset. The point of this diatribe is to point out that while it is easy to simplify and lump everyone in the same bucket of “lunacy” because this is so foreign to most people, it is a lot more complicated than most folks realize.

Although it may seem contrary, I’ll be the first to admit I am not a fan of modern transgender ideology and activism as it has been hijacked by those with an agenda and the word transgender itself is vague and meaningless as in the sake of politically correct “inclusiveness” it includes everything under the sun and is so broad and nebulous in scope, “transgenderism” is far to varied and ill-defined to even be considered an “ism”. Attached to this “movement” is dogma and rhetoric that I find to mostly be detestable and counterproductive to those rare and unfortunate folks genuinely transsexual.

More to follow addressing additional replies and specifically puberty suppression in keeping with the topic of the OP.

I appreciate the opportunity to shed some light into all of this for those interested in learning more about it all. For those that aren't who are sharing their ill-informed comments and opinions, I understand and uphold your right to speak your mind as you feel necessary but urge you to keep an open mind. Long ago lost was TOS's motto but maybe we can continue the tradition of denying ignorance here?

Thank You for the above explanation and from your personal experience.

[kdog]

I appreciate the opportunity to shed some light into all of this for those interested in learning more about it all. For those that aren't who are sharing their ill-informed comments and opinions, I understand and uphold your right to speak your mind as you feel necessary but urge you to keep an open mind. Long ago lost was TOS's motto but maybe we can continue the tradition of denying ignorance here?

I would appreciate if you would share some more light on the subject because I come from a simpler  time and place . I had a few gay friends in the past when I was younger , non sexual friendships, and that is about all I know. Heck, I have good buddies at work who are homophobic as hell and it's funny to mess with them. 

I'm not ignorant, just maybe not fulling really willing to understand.

[Freija]

Puberty blockers at 11. I'm out of words.

The hypothetical scenario in the OP involved a subject born female or in today's PC parlance, assigned (or by genital inspection determined to be) female at birth.

In females, puberty usually starts between ages 8 and 13 and in males, between 9 and 15 with the averages somewhere in the middle. Gonadotropin releasing hormone agonists (GNrHa) commonly referred to puberty blockers are prescribed for a variety of conditions such as endometriosis in women and precocious (early) puberty in children. At puberty, the pituitary gland releases a chemical signal, the gonadotropin releasing hormone, that tells the gonads to start ramping up the production of estrogen and testosterone so they are effective in pausing puberty in both males and females. GNrH agonists simply block this signal from being sent. If they are discontinued, puberty proceeds naturally. If puberty has already happened, they have no effect on secondary sex characteristics.

In that case, in MTF (male-to-female) trans folks undergoing medical transition are given testosterone blockers (anti-androgens) that work by either preventing the testicles from producing testosterone or prevent the body from absorbing it. Male and female bodies produce both estrogens and androgens in widely different ratios. Testosterone is vastly more potent than estrogen. In FTM trans folks, testosterone injections alone are enough to counter the effects of endogenous estrogens.

Getting that of the way, I realize doesn't address your concerns but I will delve into those later on after I’ve addressed a few other comments.

I think puberty suppression is just wrong and unethical. If you want to be any gender other than how you were born, you have to wait til you are 18 years old. And I would fully support you then, but not before then.

This is for both you and Beez. What is so magical about 18? When did you know you were a boy? Were you more sure at 18 than you were at 8 or 9? One thing about trans kids that most people fail to realize is that simply dealing with this serious of a problem causes most of them go grow up emotionally earlier than kids that don’t have to deal with such adult issues at a young age. Many of them are surprisingly mature and fully aware of the situation they are in.

Authentic and properly diagnosed transgender children are just as sure about their gender as non-transgender children.

Transgender Kids Show Consistent Gender Identity Across Measures
Transgender children sense their gender identities at young ages
Young Trans Children Know Who They Are

Puberty blockers are not prescribed on demand and by recommendation of the Endrocrine Society, not until Tanner Stage 2 of pubertal development. In the majority of cases cross-gender identified children and their families have been under professional observation and counseling by a multi-disciplinary team of physicians, psychologists and psychiatrists for several years prior to the use of puberty blockers which in all cases must be wholly driven by the child’s desire to take them, not that of the parents as many want so strongly to believe. This course of treatment is not forced on anyone by any measure. Without insurance in the US, puberty blocking injections run between $1200 to $2000 per month with a 12 to 14 month implant in the neighborhood of $18,000 to $20,000.

Knowing they are available, the kids themselves are the ones begging for them as the fear and thought of developing their natal secondary sex characteristics is a horrifically depressing nightmare for them. For those of you with daughters, how would they have felt developing deep voices, facial hair, an Adam’s apple, muscles and a masculine bone structure and frame or those with boys developing breasts, curves, wide hips and an ass like Kim Kardashian? I cannot picture having happy kids in this scenario.

Resources:
Hormone treatment to halt puberty in transgender adolescents is safe and effective
Puberty blockers linked to lower suicide risk for transgender people
Puberty suppression in transgender children and adolescents (attached below)
Impact of Early Medical Treatment for Transgender Youth (attached below)
Gender Development in Transgender Preschool Children (attached below)

To me what would be unethical and abusive would be to allow these deeply unwanted changes causing immeasurable and seriously irreparable emotional harm when they could have been prevented from happening in the first place. I hate to drag it out because it’s almost become a meme but if one wants to put a reason on why so many trans kids and adults self-harm, think about or attempt suicide? This is one of them as once natal puberty has taken place, reversing those changes is very expensive, very painful and often unsatisfactory leading to a low quality of satisfaction with life and difficulty fitting in as their experienced gender.  

Now before I go further, I realize even the concept of cross-gender identified transgender prepubescent and adolescent children is contentious and even I have several mixed feelings about this. Extreme cases of severe and clear cut gender dysphoria in young children is extraordinarily rare and probably more so than stories in the media and pop culture would like us to believe but they do in fact exist. My concern is weeding out the wheat from the chaff so to speak and think the diagnostic criteria needs to be reined in a little (or maybe a lot)?

Young transgender kids do not receive any medical treatments other than counseling, observation and therapy at least until the beginning of puberty and only then after exhibiting persistent, consistent and insistent behavior and desire to live and be seen as the opposite sex. Many of these kids end up with some hefty mental health issues such as depression and anxiety to the point of being uncooperative and non-functional and in those cases, a social transition strategy is employed to ease their distress. Social transition is often accompanied with a change of name and pronouns, hair style and manner of dress, not drugs or surgeries.

I get that there are concerns. Many clinicians have them as well. Puberty blockers are known to have an effect on bone growth and density and the report if they can cause cognitive deficiencies is still out and controversial. Adults on long term use of GNrH analogues for treatment of other illnesses have reported serious side effects including death but these have not been reported in trans youth. Generally in the treatment for trans youth, blockers are only prescribed for a few years when they are either discontinued or cross-sex hormones are begun. Under the NHS in the UK, adolescents are not allowed to start cross-sex hormones until age 16. In the US, they are often started after several years of blockers at 14 or 15. Anecdotal as it may be, I know a 25 y/o young woman that started on blockers at 12, estrogen at 14/15 and had sex reassignment surgery shortly before turning 18. She is one of the most intelligent and together people I have ever known.

Regarding the risks, consider we are talking about children with severe problems often causing impairment and dysfunction, which not a popular concept I'm likely to get reamed for, is the epitome of illness and the risks of doing nothing are usually higher than doing something. If a kid says they are transgender, take them to the doctor.

I suppose they could after the age of 18 select to take Puberty Suppressions and go to the philippines and other countries and become a ladyboy.

In Thailand, and some other Asian countries, "ladyboy" is the preferred term which is the English translation for Kathoey but in most western cultures, ladyboy is considered a derogatory slur for trans people. In the Philippines they are called baklâs and are considered a third gender.

In those countries, hormones are readily available without prescription and many begin taking them young, usually by around age 12. Ladyboy culture in those societies is more or less accepted and their beauty pageants are a really big deal. Many of them are quite beautiful and besides the ladyboy bars in Bangkok, many of them live regular lives as normal women.

I would appreciate if you would share some more light on the subject because I come from a simpler  time and place . I had a few gay friends in the past when I was younger , non sexual friendships, and that is about all I know. Heck, I have good buddies at work who are homophobic as hell and it's funny to mess with them.

I'm not ignorant, just maybe not fulling really willing to understand.

Thank you @kdog for your interest and willingness to evaluate more information about this. It is appreciated. Here’s a few more tidbits. (well okay, here’s an overload of info)

* Many people associate being transgender or transsexual with homosexuality when they’re really not in the same category. The approved modern transgender activist narrative even denies there’s any connection between being trans and a person’s sexuality at all whereas certain unpopular psychological theorists and sexologists insist there is absolutely a connection. I won’t go into detail but somewhere in the ballpark of 50% or more of adult MTF trans women with late onset gender dysphoria are sexually attracted to the opposite sex i.e. as transgender women they are interested in women and become pseudo lesbians. Personally, I think the way we express our gender is one of the means we advertise our sexuality and that gender and sexuality are intertwined and or overlap.

* Somewhere in the neighborhood of 80% of the trans community are what are referred to as having late onset adult gender dysphoria with the average age of transition around 40. Those considered to have early onset GD range from young children up to mid-20s with the average age of transition between 18 and 20. In the past these groups were categorized as having primary (classic/traditional) or secondary (pseudo) transsexualism. Obviously these distinctions have been obliterated by the transgender mafia as it paints the majority in a poor light and is offensive.

* Only about 12% to 20% of transgender women that transition to live full time as women have what is euphemistically called “bottom surgery” AKA sex reassignment surgery (SRS) or gender confirmation surgery (GCS/GRS) also crudely and inaccurately called in the past, a sex change operation but that doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t live normal lives or that they’re men in a dress running around and using their penises. Take conservative YouTuber Blaire White for example. She’s very pretty and feminine and engaged to be married to her straight boyfriend and has made a video saying she isn’t interested in having SRS. Higher numbers are publicized but by my calculation adding up all the surgeons who have performed SRS since the 1950s and how many surgeries each of them is reported to have done, there aren’t more than maybe 50,000 people in history that have actually had a “sex change”.

* Another concept proposed by the pioneering [/url]Dr. Harry Benjamin is that of “psychosexual inversion” that I almost prefer to gender dysphoria when discussing young trans children which is a simplified concept for being from birth of “having the brain/mind of a girl in a boy’s body” and vice versa as some of these kids are so completely like the opposite sex in every measure.

* Another point of some debate is that the majority of those with early onset transsexualism, that is those with complete psychosexual inversion, are attracted to the same biological sex or in other words they grow up like normal girls/women and are attracted to men. This group is rarely seen publicly. Rather than desiring to change culture and society demanding to be accepted as transgender women, they want nothing more than to be quietly blend into society and disappear as “normal” women and men.

* Most people think the LGBQxyz community is one big happy rainbow family sitting around a campfire singing Kumbaya which is how things are promoted for solidarity and political clout but is often far from the actual case. Many lesbians don’t like transgender women with penises invading their space and many gay men don’t like trans women because it reduces the number of available men that might otherwise be gay. Behind the scenes, it’s a shitshow.

I could keep going but nobody is going to read this anyway. I’d be happy to answer any questions I can on this subject. Sorry for getting carried away.

Is there a prize for the longest post ever?  

[guohua]

@"Freija" 

Is there a prize for the longest post ever?  

I think Mystic Wanderer has you bet still, Not by much maybe a Comma or Period   But it is Very Close. 

[Moonmagic]

@"Freija"

Well, I consider myself Schooled on a few things there, I'll come back to read it again a few times so the information sinks in properly, but that was interesting!

Thank you!

[Antisthenes]

Freija Wrote:… this is also something that has touched my own family directly as I myself know what it is like to be seen and treated like a gender incongruent/gender non-conforming child…

Hi Freija....I hope you don't mind me being nosey. This has left me a little quizzical as I'm trying to understand what it is you meant here? Are you saying you had a sibling that is trans or that you yourself are actually a trans person? Both would explain your textbook knowledge on the subject. I find the whole premise very interesting and am fascinated to hear more on the subject, but if I've gotten to personal, please accept my apology. You are obviously and of course in no way obligated to satisfy my curiosity. TY

[Freija]

Freija Wrote:… this is also something that has touched my own family directly as I myself know what it is like to be seen and treated like a gender incongruent/gender non-conforming child…  

Hi Freija....I hope you don't mind me being nosey. This has left me a little quizzical as I'm trying to understand what it is you meant here? Are you saying you had a sibling that is trans or that you yourself are actually a trans person? Both would explain your textbook knowledge on the subject. I find the whole premise very interesting and am fascinated to hear more on the subject, but if I've gotten to personal, please accept my apology. You are obviously and of course in no way obligated to satisfy my curiosity. TY

You know what they say about curiosity and cats and since I hate am not a fan of cats and offered to answer any questions that I could, I guess I am obligated? It is okay to be curious and ask questions because there are so many myths and misconceptions about this whole thing because as noted, most people’s knowledge in this subject comes entirely from what they’ve seen in the media or read on the internet, in fact, there’s a recent Netflix documentary called Disclosure that discusses how this subject has been treated on film, in print and on TV. My experiences in these matters are more practical as well as from years of the study of the science and research surrounding this phenomenon.

When I said ”I myself know what it is like to be seen and treated like a gender incongruent/gender non-conforming child” I was referring to yours truly as I am an only child and although I had a lot of outside influences to indicate my behaviors and interests were atypical or GNC, I never really felt that way nor did I have the capacity to change those things that garnered so much ire and attention. I was just being myself in spite of intense pressures to be something else or different from how I organically just was.

Starting in kindergarten and throughout my high school years, I had some pretty big social problems and faced a lot of bullying, physical abuse and ostracization because I was unable to fit in and be seen as “normal” so I know and understand personally what kids with gender incongruent or non-conforming expressions and behaviors deal with so I think there needs to be more information and understanding about these things so that this kind of treatment will stop and let kids just be who they are without such negative repercussions.

That's why I feel some obligation to speak and bring more information to others about these things.

[Antisthenes]

Freija Wrote:… this is also something that has touched my own family directly as I myself know what it is like to be seen and treated like a gender incongruent/gender non-conforming child…  

Hi Freija....I hope you don't mind me being nosey. This has left me a little quizzical as I'm trying to understand what it is you meant here? Are you saying you had a sibling that is trans or that you yourself are actually a trans person? Both would explain your textbook knowledge on the subject. I find the whole premise very interesting and am fascinated to hear more on the subject, but if I've gotten to personal, please accept my apology. You are obviously and of course in no way obligated to satisfy my curiosity. TY

You know what they say about curiosity and cats and since I hate am not a fan of cats and offered to answer any questions that I could, I guess I am obligated? It is okay to be curious and ask questions because there are so many myths and misconceptions about this whole thing because as noted, most people’s knowledge in this subject comes entirely from what they’ve seen in the media or read on the internet, in fact, there’s a recent Netflix documentary called Disclosure that discusses how this subject has been treated on film, in print and on TV. My experiences in these matters are more practical as well as from years of the study of the science and research surrounding this phenomenon.

When I said ”I myself know what it is like to be seen and treated like a gender incongruent/gender non-conforming child” I was referring to yours truly as I am an only child and although I had a lot of outside influences to indicate my behaviors and interests were atypical or GNC, I never really felt that way nor did I have the capacity to change those things that garnered so much ire and attention. I was just being myself in spite of intense pressures to be something else or different from how I organically just was.

Starting in kindergarten and throughout my high school years, I had some pretty big social problems and faced a lot of bullying, physical abuse and ostracization because I was unable to fit in and be seen as “normal” so I know and understand personally what kids with gender incongruent or non-conforming expressions and behaviors deal with so I think there needs to be more information and understanding about these things so that this kind of treatment will stop and let kids just be who they are without such negative repercussions.

That's why I feel some obligation to speak and bring more information to others about these things.

That's pretty fascinating. Do you feel like you were able to assimilate completely after you had completed your transition. That is the correct terminology, isnt it? Transition? I would think that growing up in a war zone as you said you had that you would find yourself pretty jaded and even a victim of PTSD? Being bullied as you were in school seems a problem for many people regardless of the reason. I would think you were no exception? I guess I'm wondering if you started all over or actually maintained some of your childhood relationships? Were you close with your folks or did your situation get in the way of any of that? It'd be interesting to hear a little of how you adjusted and managed to carve out an existence in what can be perceived as a very callous world? Sorry for so many questions at once, it just seems like your experience on the planet is so foreign to that which most of us have lived. I suppose I'm just curious as to how it's all worked out for you? Thanks in advance for anything you might share.

[Freija]

TMI and TL;DR but oh well!

That's pretty fascinating. Do you feel like you were able to assimilate completely after you had completed your transition.

Whoa there! Making some pretty big assumptions or jumping to conclusions are we?

When I said I was seen as gender incongruent, perhaps I misspoke? My personality, behavior, interests, actions and for the most part after the 2nd grade when my hair grew out, my appearance as well save for being limited in the choice of clothing I could wear to school, I was perfectly as normal and conforming and not out of line as any other young girl might be. From my perspective, the only thing incongruent about me was my sex and that’s where the problems came in. Feeling like the butt of some grand cosmic joke or a cruel prank by the sky gods I believed in as a child, I just happened to be born with a penis which I felt was the gravest of mistakes and like a birth defect as never in my life had I thought of myself as a boy and I was pretty damned insistent on not being seen or treated like one either. Needless to say, this caused a few problems in my young life.

That is the correct terminology, isnt it? Transition?

I suppose for some this concept is applicable but implies some sort of before and after or the moving from one state to another and this was never really the case for me. I was never integrated or accepted as boy because I wasn’t one and that was something I was absolutely sure of in spite of the obvious physical evidence to the contrary. I had no idea how such a thing, that I could be a girl with a boy’s body, was even possible but there was never any question in my mind of who and what I was regardless.

This was not some internalized wish or make believe or error in my perception. It was very apparent to everyone that my “gender”, if you want to call it that, was completely inverted from what was expected and that indeed I had the mind, spirit and vibe of that of a girl. Subsequently, due to my overwhelmingly innate nature and persistence of my convictions, in my home life with parents, grandparents and extended family, I was raised, thought of and treated like a girl as I grew up after everyone realized by 5 or 6 what was going on with me. Not that I wasn’t encouraged or coached and occasionally even punished for not acting like a boy but that was not part of my wheelhouse or something I knew how to do or be and all this did was make me unhappy and depressed and even more rebellious and obstinate.

When I started school was when I realized how different I was and I hated pretty much everything about life was when problems really started for me. I didn’t even make it though kindergarten before my folks were asked find some sort of special program for me and I didn’t finish the year. Everything was just wrong and I was so out of place and I didn’t understand or like that I couldn’t just be like the other girls. I was really little too, smaller than most of the girls even and more than anything, I wanted to look like them, have long hair like them and dress like them which seemed like the natural and normal thing for me to do but of course I couldn’t as in 1960, such a thing was completely unheard of. All this was a bit much for my father and pretty embarrassing and because he had become abusive, my birth parents split before I started first grade.

Once I did start regular school, things didn’t get any better and I only felt worse. After the end of the 2nd grade, I more or less had a nervous breakdown that summer and I was so unhappy and depressed, it’s kind of blurry. I defiantly insisted in only wearing girl’s clothes and made it known I would fight with all I had to not start back to school in the fall unless I could and my parents and grandparents were at a complete loss what to do with me. Having girl’s clothes for home and girls toys and things was not enough and in negotiating with me about crying about what I could wear, a compromise was offered that if I would shut the hell up about it and cooperate. It was agreed I could let my hair grow long instead which I thought was a pretty good tradeoff and would make me more like other girls than clothes could anyway. A year or so later, this pretty much backfired on my mom because the dress codes in 1963/’64 did not allow boys to have long hair and so began another battle. By the time I got out of the 3rd grade, I had been in seven different schools in two different states due to my lack of assimilation and because my simple presence was considered disruptive.

After being asked to leave two more schools in the 4th grade and an unfortunate and rather traumatic incident on an empty playground that caused me to miss the last two weeks of the school I was in, my mom and I packed up everything we could in her rusty ’56 Chevy my grandfather had given her and took off to Reno, Nevada for a fresh start. Living in a rundown Motel-6 when they were still six bucks a night, even though I was overly mature for my age, my mom was uncomfortable leaving me alone while she looked for work so she tracked down my father and he agreed to take me in. This terrified me. He had always been a mean bastard and hated that I looked and acted like a girl but he promised not to cut my hair or make fun of me and I really had no choice. I rode a Greyhound bus by myself from Reno to Southern California.

He had remarried and now I had a step-mom, two step-sisters to play with and a step-brother all around my age. My dad and my new step-brother did nothing but tease and mock me but I did get to do fun and memorable things like go to Disneyland and to the beach and with the two girls to hang out with, I survived. Besides, they had clothes I could wear and makeup I could play with so they kept me sane for most of the summer vacation I was there.

In the meantime, my mom had met someone and I made the bus trip from San Bernardino through Vegas back to
Reno. This guy, that would soon be my step-dad, was a former Lutheran pastor and was a working clinical psychologist and at his insistence, I was put into counseling with a psychiatrist at ten years old before starting the fifth grade.

As one might think in 1965, this was not for conversion therapy or to try to change me, it was a foregone conclusion nothing ever would change me and there was nothing wrong with the way I was anyway so the focus was on dealing with all the bullying and social ostracization, not that I understood myself to be a girl. I saw a bunch of different doctors and became a curiosity they wanted to share with their doctor buddies. Nobody had ever seen or knew about trans kids so I was studied at great length.

Four more schools in the 5th and 6th grade and my folks had had enough dealing with all this shit so we decided to move to Phoenix for a fresh start and to put down roots instead of moving every time I had to change schools. By this time, what sex I was had become undeterminable. I was still way little, very feminine and had hair well below my shoulders cut in a girl’s style. When the school refused to enroll me due to my track record and appearance, my folks got lawyers and threatened to sue the school board.

I started 7th grade/junior high a week late while all this got settled. Three days later I was expelled formally for fighting a gym coach that tried to drag me into the boy’s locker room/showers because there was no way in hell I was going in there. Two weeks later after seeing a private psychiatrist and a school appointed psychologist, I was allowed back into school with exemption letters from both and I never had to take PE class again. 7th and 8th grade were “interesting”. I was a freak and an outcast and at 14, still hadn’t shown the slightest signs of starting puberty. By then, I was shopping in the girl’s department exclusively with clothes that were unisex or could pass as boy’s clothes for school and other clothes I could wear when I wasn’t in school. Because it had become awkward in public when shopkeepers and waiters and such called me Miss or young lady, my folks started using she/her pronouns for me rather than trying to explain the situation to them.

Before starting high school, my folks met with the school twice. My mom joked that was to warn them I was coming as humor had always been one of the ways this whole thing was dealt with. I had long pretty blonde hair halfway down my back and had gotten fairly used to being called a queer faggot motherfucker and being bullied, punched and roughed up daily. I didn’t think much of it really. It had always been that way and was normal for me. I was withdrawn, isolated and didn’t make friends or socialize at all and I was fine with that. Things were pretty routine and par for the course my freshman year and because my folks thought it would be easier for me with less kids, I went to summer school and I did make a friend that would be my bestie and the only friend I ever made the entire time I was in school. I always wondered what happened to her?

Sophomore year when I was either still 14 or 15(?) things changed. Lying in wait for me one day when walking home from school was a gang of boys intent on teaching me a lesson or some crap? I was beaten to within an inch of my life, spent a couple days in the hospital and a month recovering before I was healed enough to go back to school.

This was a turning point with my folks about my future. I told them I could no longer continue living this charade and that there was no way in hell I was ever going to grow up and be a man. This was a no shit Sherlock moment for them and said this was something they’d always known was coming but had been told by doctors not to bring it up so it didn’t plant crazy ideas in my head. I was pretty pissed about this initially but they knew how serious I was. Even though they felt their hands were tied because they didn’t know what could be done about it if I was to stay in school, which was much higher on their priority list than what gender I was, adjustments were made.

I began what can be called kind of a dual life although there was little if any difference between the two other than what name and pronouns were used for me. I looked the same, acted the same and everything was the same except I was fully a girl at home and everywhere else and a boy that looked and acted like a girl to stay in school. This pacified me for a while and helped ease the situation I was in.

I hated going to school even more then although I did well academically. After I was assaulted, I was not allowed to leave the house except to go to school unless one of my parents was with me “for my safety” because they were super paranoid someone would try to kill me again. Subsequently, I never went to a school game, a dance, a prom or went to a party or went on a date but I was mostly okay with that. People were just assholes anyway and I could drink at home and smoke pot as long as they pretended to not know about it so for a while, I was happy at just being able to fully express myself in the way that had always felt normal to me.

But, my happiness with this situation didn’t last long. Getting up and going to school every day where people knew I really wasn’t a girl soon took its toll on me emotionally along with the fact that shortly before turning 16, I finally began to show signs of starting puberty which horrified me. I was withdrawn and depressed and became very suicidal. Before my junior year was over, I insisted I was never going back to school again and spent most of my time locked in my room. I knew I was in trouble and my folks knew it too.

By this point, because we’re talking 1971~1972, I had no explanation or no words for why I was born male but grew up to be a girl? It was just something that had always been and I never really questioned or tried to understand why… it just was and nothing I really had control over. Although I had been seeing talk doctors since I was ten, my folks had found another one they insisted that I see and it was then and only then that I learned there was actually a name for people like me: transsexual.

After a round of evaluation and a shitload of tests by three different doctors, all of which were concerned that I was only 17 and younger than any of them had heard about having this condition at that point, it was proposed that If I was allowed to start taking cross-sex hormones (estrogen), I had to promise to go back to school and make every effort to graduate with the dangling carrot that after graduation, no one would ever have to know I wasn’t born female again. I started HRT at the beginning of summer vacation in 1972 after my junior year which provided a dramatic turnaround in my emotional state and I made it through and graduated. By then I had hair to my waist, was about 5’5” and 120 pounds and had a years worth of very noticeable breast growth going on. As promised, after graduation, I was never known as a boy ever again and never saw anyone I went to high school with the rest of my life.

Soon I was working in an office as a front desk receptionist/secretary and life went on from there. I’ve never lived as a man and have no life experience as such. I blended seamlessly into the woodwork as just a regular young woman keeping my history private and living a reasonably normal life. I took some accounting and secretarial classes at a junior college and got better jobs. I was considered pretty and attractive and explored dating although I was still underage and couldn’t get into bars or anything and well, wasn’t about to let anyone get physically close to me due to my anomalous anatomy so nothing every really worked out.

At age 22 in 1977, I took a six week leave of absence from work and had sex reassignment surgery in Colorado. After about a year to fully recover, I began to have more complete relationships and was fairly promiscuous for a few years with lots of partying and drugs and just having fun and living life. At 29, I met a man that shared common interests and we became great friends. A year later in 1985 at 30, we got married and stayed married for the next 12 years. We divorced in 1997. He is now remarried but still a part of my life and one of my best friends until the day I day. I’ve had a couple 5-year relationships since but have been single for the last 12 or 13 years but I’ve been working on at least finding FWBs if not something more serious!

Had I not had the support, love and understanding of my parents growing up, I would be long dead by now. I stopped seeing my biological father when I was 14 because he was such an asshole and I had no idea where he even was. The year before my mom died when I was 25, she tracked him down, told him I had been living as a girl for nearly ten years, had had a “sex change” and reconciled us. When we did finally reconnect, he was beside himself and said everything all made sense to him now. We stayed in touch and stayed friendly until he died about 15 years ago. Him and my ex-husband got to meet several times and dear old dad was pretty damn proud how his kid turned out.

In the real world, I am not open or out about how I grew up or the things I’ve been through. Sure, I have a couple close confidantes that know but my medical history is not something I share casually. At 65, thanks to still taking estrogen and not going through menopause like natal females, I still look fairly young for my age and I’m young at heart and still like to party and have fun. I’m a regular at a neighborhood dive sports pub and have tons of friends and people that know me.

For those curious... Sorry, I don't do faces online. Oldest photo from 18 months ago

I would think that growing up in a war zone as you said you had that you would find yourself pretty jaded and even a victim of PTSD? Being bullied as you were in school seems a problem for many people regardless of the reason. I would think you were no exception?

Nah, not really. I put up with so much shit early in life, it thickened my skin and toughened me up. Even after I was nearly killed it wasn’t that big of a deal to me because I’d been beaten up so many times and the only different that time was in its severity. It traumatized my folks a lot more than me. Of course, I went for six months or counseling after but was pretty sick of talking to doctors by that point in my life.

It'd be interesting to hear a little of how you adjusted and managed to carve out an existence in what can be perceived as a very callous world?

Well, how does anybody? Seeing how nobody knew or knows except those I tell that I wasn’t born female, I’ve never faced any discrimination or oppression for my history. Online anonymously is the only place I have shared my past which I have done so that people can learn about people like me and have a better understanding of it all. IRL, the fact that I am of trans experience is something I prefer to keep private.

Sorry for so many questions at once, it just seems like your experience on the planet is so foreign to that which most of us have lived. I suppose I'm just curious as to how it's all worked out for you? Thanks in advance for anything you might share.

That’s okay and thanks for asking. I’m sure I’ve answered most of your questions and more if not bored you to tears? If you or anyone would like to ask me anything please feel free and don’t be shy as long you’re respectful as you would be to any woman of my age, your mom or your grandma.

PS
This is not news to any that know or remember me from TOS. Having heard some of the most horrible things said there, there’s not a whole lot I find shocking or offensive. Say what you will, just please don’t be a dick about it.  

* Now do I get the prize for the longest post EVAR?

--Elisabeth

[guohua]

@"Freija" 

* Now do I get the prize for the longest post EVAR?

--Elisabet

Yes you do. 

You have all my Respect and Love.