The AR-15 Thread - AR-15's and Magazines

[Ninurta]

With the current political climate and focus on the AR-15 rifle, I thought it prudent to make a thread on the relative merits of the various magazines available currently - which may become UNavailable at the drop of a hat - for the AR-15 platform.

I know, I know, the focus in the news is on the rifle itself... but I'm a firm believer in the notion that the media tend to concentrate focus on one thing while the worker bees in the background are targeting another thing altogether, and in this case I'm fairly confident that, instead of banning the rifle itself (again!), they'll probably go after the stuff that makes it work instead, thereby nullifying the usefulness of the rifle itself, and relegating it to nothing more than wall-hanger status... then, when it's useless anyhow, they can outlaw even hanging it on a wall, without a whimper from their opposition.

This is the strategy currently being employed in California, and I expect it to catch on across the nation. It may have started in CA, but has caught on already in several other states - you can't get normal capacity AR-15 magazines already in CA, NY, MA, NJ, MD, HI, CO, and the cities of Washington, DC and Chicago. Most manufacturers and retailers won't even ship them to those areas. The majority of those limit capacity to 10 rounds, although one or two generous ones set the limit at 20 - still a full 50% less than the normal 30 rounds.

In the case of CA, you can have a mag that looks like a 30 round mag, but it must be permanently crippled at 10 rounds by the addition of a permanent block that limits follower travel at 10 rounds, leaving empty air below that. More on that, and the dangers thereof, later.

Being the furtive and shifty-eyed owner of one of those more-dangerous-than-nukulur-bombs black rifles, I've done my homework on the care and feeding of said ugly black gun. The magazine that came with it was a Magpul Pmag Gen2 30 rounder, all polymer but the spring. Now plastic magazines are nothing new - I used to have an AK74, and practically all of the mags available were plastic of one variety or another, and I never had a failure to function with any of them... but an AK is built a little looser than an AR.

One thing I noticed about the AR is that it gets HOT pretty quick if you launch enough bullets down range fast enough. I changed the stock handguards on account of that, installing a pair of GI M4 guards with aluminum heat shields instead of the stock cosmetic handguards that had no heat shield. But that led me to wonder - what happens to plastic feed lips on plastic magazines when the bolt and carrier get that hot and come in actual contact with the magazine feed? it didn't put a pretty picture in my mind. Murphy's Law dictates that your equipment will fail at the exact point that you need it the most, which is not reassuring. That led me on a search for magazines with STEEL feed lips instead. I found that not many are available now.

The main 3 types I encountered were 1) GI all metal mags, 2) MWG Bulgarian-made mags, and 3) Lancer L5 AWM ("Advanced Warfighter Magazine") mags.

GI all metal mags have been standard fare since the inception of the AR15/M16 platform. but are getting increasingly rare since the advent of plastic mags. Originally, they came in 20 round capacity only, and were designed to be disposable - loaded packaged mags sent out into the field to be used and tossed when you reloaded a fresh disposable mag... but the guys in green started hanging on to the empties and reloading them, and over time the disposable nature was forgotten. Magazines designed to be disposable are not exactly confidence inspiring, either. I do, however, have 6 of them that I, erm, "picked up" around 1979, all in 30 round capacity, which still mostly work 40 years later - one of them has developed a problem of sticking in the rifle rather than just dropping free when I hit the button.

The MWG Bulgarian magazines are interesting. They were developed by the same guy who developed the Bulgarian "Circle 10" magazines that were so sought after by AK afficionados a few years back. ALL of my plastic AK magazines , whether East German, Bulgarian, or what have you, had one thing in common - steel feel lips molded into the plastic body, and a sheet steel floor plate. The MWG magazines have retained the steel feed lips (have to use a magnet to detect them, as they are coated with polymer to blend in with the body of the mag), but have done away with the steel floor plate. These come in both 30 and 40 round flavors, so I picked up a 40 rounder to use as an "ambush mag" - one that gives the operator 10 extra rounds to get under cover before he has to reload in the event that he blunders into an ambush.

Lancer L5 AWM's are, for my money, the state of the art in AR magazines. They have hardened steel feed lips, but a polymer body, the best of both worlds. Some of you may recall an all-metal magazine here or there that malfunctioned frequently enough that it needed to be replaced, but the bean counters were reluctant to replace it for you, so the usual field expedient was to toss it under a truck tire and "accidentally" run it over, visibly denting the body enough that you could then take it to supply, say "oops!" and get a shiny new one. Polymer bodies don't dent when run over by a truck, so the damage isn't permanent - the sides spring back, the mag keeps on ticking. The steel feed lips quell my trepidation at melting off the plastic feed lips at an inopportune time - but there's more! The steel insert runs all the way down to the magazine catch, giving a steel surface for the catch to hold on to, rather than a plastic surface for it to sheer off at just the wrong moment, dumping your mag out of your rifle (usually right when the Philistines are upon thee, Samson!)... and of course all the ammo in it. Another plus.

Here's a video torture test of the differences between the Magpul Pmag that came with the rifle vs. the Lancers that feed it now (Caution! this video is painful to watch! No gun should suffer such abuse, but some people sacrifice all in the name of science!):





I've found NO bad reviews on the Lancers beyond one out of Kommiefornia that exclaims these mags will get you KILLED! :






This is where the Kommiefornian magazine block laws that I mentioned above come into effect (beyond the fact that I'd be reluctant to take tactical advice from a Kommiefornian, anyhow) - every one of the failures mentioned in the video can be directly traced to the unique crippling required by California law. The follower is getting stuck and breaking against the rivet required to limit it's travel. Only happens in California, and the guy ain't bright enough to realize that, or that he should move to a Free State.

One more video, for effect and with feeling:





Now to the bottom line - Lancer mags are retailing for, usually, between $14.99 and $16.99 each at the time of this writing. Some outliers will go as low as $12.99 each, others as high as $17.99 each. If you buy in bulk, you can get deals if you hunt for them - I found a bulk pack at $10.30 each, which is like getting the top two mags free at the going prices.

If you run an AR platform, get 'em while you can. I feel a more general "large capacity ammunition feeding device" ban coming in lieu of an outright "Assault Weapons" ban, and what you already have doesn't have to come from the black market after the evil day comes - you already have them in hand.

God help the poor bastard that tries to take 'em. He'd better be able to duck rapidly, and 30X however many mags you already have.


.

[Mystic Wanderer]

I know, I know, the focus in the news is on the rifle itself... but I'm a firm believer in the notion that the media tend to concentrate focus on one thing while the worker bees in the background are targeting another thing altogether, and in this case I'm fairly confident that, instead of banning the rifle itself (again!), they'll probably go after the stuff that makes it work instead, thereby nullifying the usefulness of the rifle itself, and relegating it to nothing more than wall-hanger status... then, when it's useless anyhow, they can outlaw even hanging it on a wall, without a whimper from their opposition.

Excellent points/Op.  

Now, off to Twitter with this excellent post.  

[guohua]

Great thread.
My husband and I are Old and Old Fashion,,, we have the aluminum 30 rd. magazines made by Brownells, 25 magazine for each of our, Her and His AR-15's.
Here is a good site that will help people choose a magazine: link

Now for our Her and His Barrett M82A1 again we use the Brownells 10 rd. magazines, we have 10 magazines for each.
Yes, we like to REACH out and Touch The Bad Guys,,,,,,,
 

[Ninurta]

Great thread.
My husband and I are Old and Old Fashion,,, we have the aluminum 30 rd. magazines made by Brownells, 25 magazine for each of our, Her and His AR-15's.
Here is a good site that will help people choose a magazine: link

Now for our Her and His Barrett M82A1 again we use the Brownells 10 rd. magazines, we have 10 magazines for each.
Yes, we like to REACH out and Touch The Bad Guys,,,,,,,
 

The 6 USGI mags I have, the ones I've had forever, since Methuselah's possum hound was just a pup, are the old aluminum ones. I have one gen-yoo-ine Colt, 3 Adventure Lines, and two Sanchez, all issued way back when. Back in the day, folks would fight over the Colts and Adventure Line mags, but the Sanchez were not so popular. As a matter of fact, the one that sticks in the mag well now is one of the Sanchez mags. I also had one of the old Colt 20 rounders with the aluminum follower, probably of Vietnam vintage, which I picked up in a box of surplus mags at DRMO at Fort Bragg back in the 90's. DRMO was a great deal for mags, as I got those for 0.10 cents a pound, and aluminum doesn't weigh that much. I don't have that one any more (wish I did, though!) and the other 6 I just "found" in my trunk one day, all wrapped up in the mag pouches they came in. The only one I've had any trouble with is the one Sanchez that binds in the mag well, the rest still run flawlessly after 40 years in my possession, and the abuse that entailed.

I like the MWG 40 rounder, but it does have one issue - on a full loadout of 40 rounds, it doesn't like to seat fully and you have to smack the bottom a little harder than usual on a closed bolt. They probably should have made it a quarter inch longer. The problem is that on a full 40 round loadout the anti-tilt follower bottoms out, so the spring doesn't have enough give left to seat on a closed bolt without offering it violence. an extra quarter inch play space for the follower would have solved that. I'm debating just shaving off a smidge from the bottom of the follower to solve that problem. The other alternative is to just load 38 rounds instead of the full 40 it's supposed to be rated at.

Some years ago in a land faraway, I carried a Colt model 653 - one of the ones they sometimes refer to as a "CAR-15", not to be confused with the XM177E1 of Vietnam fame, also sometimes referred to as a "CAR-15"... but neither of those are actual "CAR-15"s. Anyhow, I had a steel (not aluminum) 40 round mag for it (which is where I learned about "ambush magazines") which never failed me. I can't recall who made it way back then, however. I suspect that the rifle itself started out life as an Israeli gun (it was a Colt, but Colt sold a bunch of them to Israel in the early 70's), but I don't know if that mag was Israeli or not. The rest of my mags were all 30 rounders, aluminum bodies, probably USGI. I don't think the US issued any 40 rounders then, but maybe some of the Sneaky Petes could lay hands on them.

Flash forward 40 years, and the world is going polymer. The rifle I have now ain't the Colt 653. It's a S+W M+P15. It's got a flat-top upper instead of the handle the Colt had, and those oval M4 handguards instead of the round ones found on that old Colt... and a heavier barrel, which makes it weigh a bit more. Since the rifle is "modernized", I decided to modernize the mags as well and go with the polymer... MOSTLY polymer, that is. I still need those metal feed lips, just for my own peace of mind. Hell, even the butt is polymer (6 stops, I believe) like an M4, instead of the old aluminum 2-stop butt on that Colt.

Yeah, I miss my 653, but whacha gonna do?

Your Barretts are impressive, but I bet you spend more in ammo for 'em than I spent on this whole rig! You probably already know it, but that Barrett is credited with the longest sniper kill ever - 2500 meters as I recall. 1604 meters is a mile, and that kill was around 900 meters farther than THAT! At 3 to 5 dollars per round, it's a bit rich for my blood - even if I fancied that I could actually hit a man-sized target a mile and a half away.

My sniper... erm, I mean DEER... rifle is an el cheapo Remington in .308. I've yet to get it out on a range and shoot it, but again I think the magazine may be a weak point. It holds 4 rounds, but even fully loaded it's loose as a goose, and the rounds rattle in it. Not exactly confidence inspiring. I've cycled a few mags through it, never a failure to feed or function, but still that rattling is worrisome. The bolt tends to bind if you use the handle for the full cycle, so I've trained myself to open it with the handle, chamber a round by pushing the bolt in with my thumb, and then locking it with my forefinger on the handle after the round is chambered.

I also have a Ruger 10/22 that I've tricked out with a Choate stock and a flash suppressor. yes, a flash suppressor. On a .22. Call me crazy. It's mostly just to protect the barrel crown, but that bit of info is just between you and me - I encourage folks to think I'm nuts. Anyhow, the mags are the weak point on it as well. It's terribly hard to find high capacity mags for that rifle that actually function. Most mags just turn it into a jam-a-matic. The factory 10 rounder works just fine, and has for years and years, but most of the after market, high capacity mags are hit and miss.

The moral of my story is that magazines are the life's blood of your weapon, so don't scrimp on them. Unless you can scrimp on money without scrimping on quality. Happens sometimes, but not often.

[guohua]

@"Ninurta" 
Yes, the  50 Cal BMG - 660 Grain FMJ XM33 - Federal American Eagle - 100 Rounds from Lucky Gunner is $3.60 a round and we pay $360. for a box of 100 rounds. Those are for me, a little less powder.
Now my husband gets the 50 Cal BMG - 750 gr A-MAX Match - Hornady - 10 Rounds box for $5.88 a round and he get the 100 round box, also from Lucky Gunner.

We have boxes and boxes and boxes of 50 cal. rounds.

We also use ABLE'S Link

But Lucky Gunner has always be good at keeping a supply in stock of all the different types of ammunition we use. Link

Also, Cheap as Dirt is a good place for ammo in stock at all times. Link

  Just have to prepared for those Nasty Progressive Thugs to walk on our property.

[Ninurta]

I've changed the name of this thread to reflect and expansion of the scope of it from just magazines to include the AR-15 platform. After all, what good is a magazine without a gun to run it in?

This post is just a bit of housekeeping, to re-home an earlier opost I made to this more inclusive thread, to attempt to keep everything in one place. That post can be found here, and is reproduced in it's entirety below:

I've been thinking about buying a bigger gun.  The one I have is small, just something to stick in my purse, but I'd like to have a rifle, or AR-15 the way things are getting. 
Don't know if I can afford one though. I live on a fixed income, so I have to watch my pennies. 

I'll probably just have to settle for a bigger hand gun. 

Glad you got that taken care of @"senona".  You never know when you'll need a working gun.

Shop around. 

I got mine for less than 600 bucks brand new, tax and all, but it lists for around 750. You CAN lay a lot of money into an AR, but it's unnecessary. AR Snobs would have you believe that there are important differences, but there really aren't. Mine is one the snobs call "entry level" (it's a Smith and Wesson M&P-15 Sporter II), but I was handling AR's before most of them were even a gleam in their teenage mother's eye, and I'll tell you right now that the workings of all of them are exactly the same regardless of how "Buck Rogers" looking they are. A higher price does not mean higher quality - they are all the same at their most basic level. Paying out high-dollar on one means you are either buying a name label, or too many geegaws on it.

I laugh at some of the snobs insisting on a "free floating" barrel (claiming it's more accurate) and then getting that barrel with the "notch" for a grenade launcher machined into it, because it "looks like" a military M4. "free floating" barrels on an AR is like lipstick on a pig - unnecessary expense. It's an AR, not a freaking sniper rifle. It occupies an entirely different spectrum of firepower. There is no advantage to getting an expensive free floating barrel, and then having that harmonics-killing notch in it for a grenade launcher, especially considering they will never have an M203 to make use of it. All that notch is ever gonna do for them is make their barrel "whip" at the notch (which is a weaker point than the rest of the barrel) on every shot, negating the "free floating" advantage entirely.

"Basic" is not bad, nor is it substandard - it's what the rifle was designed as to begin with, and will work like a charm for it's intended use.

So shop around, look for "basic" or "entry level", as those are the only REAL AR's left in the world. They are work horses, not show horses - a MUCH better option when it's time to actually plow a furrow.

One distinction that IS important is the rifling pitch. It matters because it affects bullet flight with varying bullet weights. The original M-16 through M-16A1 had a 1:12 pitch, for use with 55 grain bullets. The Marines screwed the pooch on that by insisting on a 1:7 twist and heavier 62 grain bullets, trying to turn an assault rifle into a sniper rifle. The net result was the lighter bullets skip right past the tighter rifling and often fly wild. I got mine with a half-way 1:9 pitch, because that will work fairly well with both bullet weights.

The niche for AR's is from muzzle-in-their-gut work out to about 500 or 550 yards, with the sweet spot being from 125 yards or so to about 250 yards, and when you need more rapid fire. "Rapid fire" is not generally long range work. If you need more range than that, buy a sniper rifle instead.

Wow. This post probably belongs in a thread of it's own. I probably ought to see to that.

.

[Schmoe1]

I know, I know, the focus in the news is on the rifle itself... but I'm a firm believer in the notion that the media tend to concentrate focus on one thing while the worker bees in the background are targeting another thing altogether, and in this case I'm fairly confident that, instead of banning the rifle itself (again!), they'll probably go after the stuff that makes it work instead, thereby nullifying the usefulness of the rifle itself, and relegating it to nothing more than wall-hanger status... then, when it's useless anyhow, they can outlaw even hanging it on a wall, without a whimper from their opposition.

Excellent points/Op.  

Now, off to Twitter with this excellent post.  

ARs are few and far between right now, Buds gun shop online has been out for months, as well as many other online gun stores.

I too decided to upgrade to an AR given the current climate.  I went with Palmetto State Armory, they make their own rifles and are constantly restocking and have great prices.

I got a basic PA-15(their brand name for the AR) carbine for $615.

I love this rifle, came with some magpul furniture, including the stock, handguard, and sights.  I plan on putting a red dot on it sometime soon.

As an added bonus, it comes with a screwed on flash suppressor and full auto bolt carrier group, ya know, just in case.

[Ninurta]

ARs are few and far between right now, Buds gun shop online has been out for months, as well as many other online gun stores.

I too decided to upgrade to an AR given the current climate.  I went with Palmetto State Armory, they make their own rifles and are constantly restocking and have great prices.

I got a basic PA-15(their brand name for the AR) carbine for $615.

I love this rifle, came with some magpul furniture, including the stock, handguard, and sights.  I plan on putting a red dot on it sometime soon.

As an added bonus, it comes with a screwed on flash suppressor and full auto bolt carrier group, ya know, just in case.

True, AR-15's are in demand at the moment what with all the unrest and all. Several first-time gun owners are snatching them up along side the usual suspects who just can't get enough of them. A couple weeks ago I went and picked up a new sidearm, and that gun shop had several AR's on hand, but prices were running a little high on them because folks had already bought out the lower priced AR's there. The folks running the shop said business had been pretty brisk lately, and the folks at the State Police office who run the background checks were getting slammed from everywhere across the state, and were very busy. The background check took roughly 3 times longer than usual because they were so busy.

The S&W AR I bought a couple years ago came with a Magpul rear sight, but a standard AR "F" front sight and sight base. I believe the stock was S&W - at least it has the S&W logo molded into it - and the handguards were probably S&W. They were round like the old CAR-15 handguards instead of the oval M4 handguards, and had no heat shields at all in them. I replaced them with mil-spec M4 handguards with double heat shields, and put a red dot sight on it so that I didn't have to trust entirely in the plastic Magpul rear sight. I keep that folded down but available for use in case the red dot sight goes wonky. I co-sighted the red dot and the iron sights, meaning that when I flip up the rear sight and peep through it, the red dot is centered in the aperture and perched on top of the front sight post. I had to get a 1/2 inch "riser" to mount on the Picatinny rail and which gives another Picatinny rail that is 1/2 inch higher to get the red dot sight to co-sight with the "iron" sights. I've made use of that arrangement once already, at the range, when the battery in the red dot gave out. I'd have been blind without the iron sights co-sighted in, and range day would have been over way too early.

I've also added a flashlight and a green laser to it now. Since I don't like the idea of rails festooned all over a gun, and especially not on the handguard, I rigged a setup with a short 3-slot rail on each side of the front sight base, and put the flashlight on one side and the laser on the other, with pigtails running from each one to the handguard so that the switches are convenient to my thumb when holding the rifle in fire position. The flashlight switch has two switches in the pad, one for "on" and the other for merely momentary on - that one turns it off just by lifting thumb pressure from it. The laser has only a momentary on, no full "on", since it's not really there for sighting, it's more for scare value. Nothing like watching a laser pop on on the chest to take the fight out of a man without having to actually shoot him. That's really the only use for the laser, and in dusk to dark conditions, when it's on it leaves a line straight back to ME, which is less than optimal for survival, so I don't ever want it to be "on" all the time.  Folks will tell you that you can't see the laser line, which is usually true with red lasers unless there are a lot of particulates in the air, but it's NOT true with a green laser - the wavelength of green lasers will reflect off of air particles along it's path and show a visible beam under low light conditions. Trust me on that, I know it well from fiddling with the one I have.

That is also why green lasers are preferable - you can see the dot farther in bright conditions than you can a red one. Mine is sighted in for 50 yards, just in case I want to use it as a sighting device, but that ain't it's primary purpose. Like I said, using it can also put your opponent's crosshairs directly on YOU if used for that purpose. Ideally, I'd get an infrared laser for sighting, but those are EXPENSIVE. I don't know why they are, but they are - orders of magnitude more expensive... and to use them you also then have to buy NVD goggles to see 'em with - another expense for limited usefulness of the laser.

This AR doesn't have the full auto bolt carrier. The last one I owned, built by Century Arms from military surplus parts, DID have one. Doesn't do you any good without the auto sear, auto sear spring, and full auto selector and trigger group, though. You CAN use a lightning link or a drop-in auto sear, but the lightning links are less than optimal and just create a slam-fire situation, and both are classified as machine guns just by themselves, so if you're going that route you probably just need to get the real parts and pay the federal tax and convert it legally as it was designed to be. The price is going to be about the same for all 3 options, as the federal tax is the bulk of the expense. I myself have no use for full auto. It just burns up ammo for no good reason. You use it mostly to keep you opponent's heads down while you maneuver on him, and I can pull a trigger fast enough to do that without the full auto option. Some folks just plain love full auto, though, so I have no gripes if they want it - to each his own!

.

[projectvxn]

I've used a LOT of magazines. 

USGI green follower, tan follower, and Magpul follower aluminum body. Issued, purchased, and tactically acquired. 

I've used steel mags which SUCK. 

I've used every polymer magazine on the market today. 

I always default to the standard aluminum body USGI magazine with a Magpul follower/spring. <---This particular configuration is extremely important.

Between cost and reliability, you just can't beat them. Never had one fail in this configuration and folks who know me know that I run my equipment pretty hard. 
It is very important to me that a magazine be able to withstand abuse in a conflict situation. No other magazine configuration can meet that criterion for me.
People will tell me all day long that PMags, Lancers, MFTs, ETSs and other polymer magazines are just as good as my USGI Okay Industries mags, but that is just marketing.

I have NEVER had an Okay Industries magazine with Magpul spring and follower fail on me. Never.

[guohua]

We like the OKAY magazines.
Had many others that just didn't feed right.

[Schmoe1]

ARs are few and far between right now, Buds gun shop online has been out for months, as well as many other online gun stores.

I too decided to upgrade to an AR given the current climate.  I went with Palmetto State Armory, they make their own rifles and are constantly restocking and have great prices.

I got a basic PA-15(their brand name for the AR) carbine for $615.

I love this rifle, came with some magpul furniture, including the stock, handguard, and sights.  I plan on putting a red dot on it sometime soon.

As an added bonus, it comes with a screwed on flash suppressor and full auto bolt carrier group, ya know, just in case.

True, AR-15's are in demand at the moment what with all the unrest and all. Several first-time gun owners are snatching them up along side the usual suspects who just can't get enough of them. A couple weeks ago I went and picked up a new sidearm, and that gun shop had several AR's on hand, but prices were running a little high on them because folks had already bought out the lower priced AR's there. The folks running the shop said business had been pretty brisk lately, and the folks at the State Police office who run the background checks were getting slammed from everywhere across the state, and were very busy. The background check took roughly 3 times longer than usual because they were so busy.

The S&W AR I bought a couple years ago came with a Magpul rear sight, but a standard AR "F" front sight and sight base. I believe the stock was S&W - at least it has the S&W logo molded into it - and the handguards were probably S&W. They were round like the old CAR-15 handguards instead of the oval M4 handguards, and had no heat shields at all in them. I replaced them with mil-spec M4 handguards with double heat shields, and put a red dot sight on it so that I didn't have to trust entirely in the plastic Magpul rear sight. I keep that folded down but available for use in case the red dot sight goes wonky. I co-sighted the red dot and the iron sights, meaning that when I flip up the rear sight and peep through it, the red dot is centered in the aperture and perched on top of the front sight post. I had to get a 1/2 inch "riser" to mount on the Picatinny rail and which gives another Picatinny rail that is 1/2 inch higher to get the red dot sight to co-sight with the "iron" sights. I've made use of that arrangement once already, at the range, when the battery in the red dot gave out. I'd have been blind without the iron sights co-sighted in, and range day would have been over way too early.

I've also added a flashlight and a green laser to it now. Since I don't like the idea of rails festooned all over a gun, and especially not on the handguard, I rigged a setup with a short 3-slot rail on each side of the front sight base, and put the flashlight on one side and the laser on the other, with pigtails running from each one to the handguard so that the switches are convenient to my thumb when holding the rifle in fire position. The flashlight switch has two switches in the pad, one for "on" and the other for merely momentary on - that one turns it off just by lifting thumb pressure from it. The laser has only a momentary on, no full "on", since it's not really there for sighting, it's more for scare value. Nothing like watching a laser pop on on the chest to take the fight out of a man without having to actually shoot him. That's really the only use for the laser, and in dusk to dark conditions, when it's on it leaves a line straight back to ME, which is less than optimal for survival, so I don't ever want it to be "on" all the time.  Folks will tell you that you can't see the laser line, which is usually true with red lasers unless there are a lot of particulates in the air, but it's NOT true with a green laser - the wavelength of green lasers will reflect off of air particles along it's path and show a visible beam under low light conditions. Trust me on that, I know it well from fiddling with the one I have.

That is also why green lasers are preferable - you can see the dot farther in bright conditions than you can a red one. Mine is sighted in for 50 yards, just in case I want to use it as a sighting device, but that ain't it's primary purpose. Like I said, using it can also put your opponent's crosshairs directly on YOU if used for that purpose. Ideally, I'd get an infrared laser for sighting, but those are EXPENSIVE. I don't know why they are, but they are - orders of magnitude more expensive... and to use them you also then have to buy NVD goggles to see 'em with - another expense for limited usefulness of the laser.

This AR doesn't have the full auto bolt carrier. The last one I owned, built by Century Arms from military surplus parts, DID have one. Doesn't do you any good without the auto sear, auto sear spring, and full auto selector and trigger group, though. You CAN use a lightning link or a drop-in auto sear, but the lightning links are less than optimal and just create a slam-fire situation, and both are classified as machine guns just by themselves, so if you're going that route you probably just need to get the real parts and pay the federal tax and convert it legally as it was designed to be. The price is going to be about the same for all 3 options, as the federal tax is the bulk of the expense. I myself have no use for full auto. It just burns up ammo for no good reason. You use it mostly to keep you opponent's heads down while you maneuver on him, and I can pull a trigger fast enough to do that without the full auto option. Some folks just plain love full auto, though, so I have no gripes if they want it - to each his own!

.

Do you like the Smith & Wesson AR?  It was on my short list of affordable AR15s.  I was eyeballing the Ruger AR as well, but ultimately went with Palmetto.

What turned me off to Smith & Wesson was when I bought a boot dagger with S&W's name on it...complete piece of shit, granted it was a $20 boot dagger, but still, why put your name on something like that?

I'm with you on the full auto, I'd much rather be accurate and conserve ammo, and you're right, it's more involved making a gun full auto than that rampant rumor about simply filing the auto sear.

[Snarl]

I always default to the standard aluminum body USGI magazine with a Magpul follower/spring. <---This particular configuration is extremely important.

Just swap the follower and spring?  No other mod?

[Ninurta]

Do you like the Smith & Wesson AR?  It was on my short list of affordable AR15s.  I was eyeballing the Ruger AR as well, but ultimately went with Palmetto.

What turned me off to Smith & Wesson was when I bought a boot dagger with S&W's name on it...complete piece of shit, granted it was a $20 boot dagger, but still, why put your name on something like that?

I'm with you on the full auto, I'd much rather be accurate and conserve ammo, and you're right, it's more involved making a gun full auto than that rampant rumor about simply filing the auto sear.

Yup, I like it fine. It hasn't let me down yet.

As I said above, I DID trade out the stock handgrips for a milspec set, because of the stock grips having no heat shields. The recoil assembly tube IS milspec, though, so if I wanted to trade the butt out, that would be a possibility, too, but I haven't found a reason to yet. The stock handgrips are the round ones I prefer (rather than the M-4 oval ones), but the no heat shield problem was a no-go at this station, so I swapped them out.


The barrel rifling is 1:9. making it suitable for the 55 grain M193 ammo AND the 62 grain M855 ammo. I'm not wild about the heavier barrel (.750 OD vs. .625 or so for the M16A1 barrel), but sometimes you take the bad with the good, and it's hard to find an AR any more with that pencil profile anyhow. I live in a pretty humid area, and the barrel finish is holding up very well. Excellent, really. The front sight base is a standard parkerized one that has developed a bit of a patina, but the barrel and the receivers are still like brand new. The only real problem with that heavy barrel is that it increases the overall weight of the gun. It weighs around 9.2 pounds with a loaded 40 round mag and the flashlight, laser, and mounts, and the red dot.

All in all, it's right about where I want it now. No useless, wasted extra Picatinny rails or vertical foregrip to get snagged up on crap when I don't want it to be snagged, or any extra bullshit other than that green laser. I might, at some point in the future, install a mounting point for a single point sling, but I have no plans to do so any time soon, as I have no real need for one. All I'd have to do is take off the recoil spring tube, install the sling mount and replace the tube and re-stake the nut, but I just don't feel like it if I don't need it.

What I don't like about Smith and Wesson is how they rolled over for Bloomberg and the anti-gunners some few years ago, so as a rule I don't do business with them, but the deal was too good to pass up when I bought the AR. Back when S+W did that dirty deal, I was carrying an S+W revolver at work, and I took it into the office and turned it in, told them I'd rather carry a Taurus, and carried that Taurus for the remainder of my time there.

To make an AR full auto, you have to get the full auto trigger group, and auto sear and spring, and the pins for all of that, THEN you have to drill a hole for the auto sear pin, mill out sections of the lower receiver to allow for it's operation, replace the trigger, disconnect, and hammer and of course install the auto sear. Then, if you don't have a FA bolt carrier, you either have to get one of those or rig the existing bolt carrier to enable it to trip the sear... not to mention all the paperwork and waiting time for BATFE approval that entails. It's far more trouble than it's worth just to make a gun whose only use is to waste ammo. I won't do it, not for myself or anyone else, either.

,

[projectvxn]

I always default to the standard aluminum body USGI magazine with a Magpul follower/spring. <---This particular configuration is extremely important.

Just swap the follower and spring?  No other mod?

I'd prefer new-manufactured bodies because they have improved internal geometry and better spot welds compared to older service models. But other than that, nothing.

EDIT:

Right now, these are the best magazines for a low budget on the market if you can't afford the Okay mags.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/d-h-5-56...-8416.html

[Schmoe1]

Do you like the Smith & Wesson AR?  It was on my short list of affordable AR15s.  I was eyeballing the Ruger AR as well, but ultimately went with Palmetto.

What turned me off to Smith & Wesson was when I bought a boot dagger with S&W's name on it...complete piece of shit, granted it was a $20 boot dagger, but still, why put your name on something like that?

I'm with you on the full auto, I'd much rather be accurate and conserve ammo, and you're right, it's more involved making a gun full auto than that rampant rumor about simply filing the auto sear.

Yup, I like it fine. It hasn't let me down yet.

As I said above, I DID trade out the stock handgrips for a milspec set, because of the stock grips having no heat shields. The recoil assembly tube IS milspec, though, so if I wanted to trade the butt out, that would be a possibility, too, but I haven't found a reason to yet. The stock handgrips are the round ones I prefer (rather than the M-4 oval ones), but the no heat shield problem was a no-go at this station, so I swapped them out.


The barrel rifling is 1:9. making it suitable for the 55 grain M193 ammo AND the 62 grain M855 ammo. I'm not wild about the heavier barrel (.750 OD vs. .625 or so for the M16A1 barrel), but sometimes you take the bad with the good, and it's hard to find an AR any more with that pencil profile anyhow. I live in a pretty humid area, and the barrel finish is holding up very well. Excellent, really. The front sight base is a standard parkerized one that has developed a bit of a patina, but the barrel and the receivers are still like brand new. The only real problem with that heavy barrel is that it increases the overall weight of the gun. It weighs around 9.2 pounds with a loaded 40 round mag and the flashlight, laser, and mounts, and the red dot.

All in all, it's right about where I want it now. No useless, wasted extra Picatinny rails or vertical foregrip to get snagged up on crap when I don't want it to be snagged, or any extra bullshit other than that green laser. I might, at some point in the future, install a mounting point for a single point sling, but I have no plans to do so any time soon, as I have no real need for one. All I'd have to do is take off the recoil spring tube, install the sling mount and replace the tube and re-stake the nut, but I just don't feel like it if I don't need it.

What I don't like about Smith and Wesson is how they rolled over for Bloomberg and the anti-gunners some few years ago, so as a rule I don't do business with them, but the deal was too good to pass up when I bought the AR. Back when S+W did that dirty deal, I was carrying an S+W revolver at work, and I took it into the office and turned it in, told them I'd rather carry a Taurus, and carried that Taurus for the remainder of my time there.

To make an AR full auto, you have to get the full auto trigger group, and auto sear and spring, and the pins for all of that, THEN you have to drill a hole for the auto sear pin, mill out sections of the lower receiver to allow for it's operation, replace the trigger, disconnect, and hammer and of course install the auto sear. Then, if you don't have a FA bolt carrier, you either have to get one of those or rig the existing bolt carrier to enable it to trip the sear... not to mention all the paperwork and waiting time for BATFE approval that entails. It's far more trouble than it's worth just to make a gun whose only use is to waste ammo. I won't do it, not for myself or anyone else, either.

,

Nope, not worth it at all modifying guns illegally.  For full auto or a homemade suppressor.  I will say I'd go for a suppressor before I went for full auto if shit actually hit the fan.  In that case, I'm glad the Palmetto came with a screwed on A2 flash hider rather than pin welded on.

I'm not an expert on ARs, but I kind of regret not going with the mid length instead of the carbine based on what I've read about both.  Mine has the nitrided barrel, I've heard chromed is the way to go for longevity, but again, I'm no expert.

I love the old iron sights, this Palmetto has the Magpul flip-up rear sight on a picatinny rail with a fixed front sight, but I also want to get a red dot, I've been eyeing an affordable Sig Sauer that's gotten nice reviews, but I'm split between a red dot and a lower magnification rifle scope.  I don't want to be cheap with either but I'm limited to one or the other for now.  

I agree on the hand guards with quadruple rails all over the place, I hate the feel of them.  I really like the Magpul handguard, very comfortable in my opinion but also has slots for attachments if you want.  You got the wider grips or the narrower grips?  I think that's one of the reasons I didn't go with the Ruger, I didn't like the narrower hand guards it came with. 

I regret not picking up the Sig 556 when they first came out and were right around $500, I've heard they're solid.  I considered the Springfield Saint too, but Springfield can kiss my ass after the shit they pulled.

[Snarl]

Nope, not worth it at all modifying guns illegally.  For full auto or a homemade suppressor.  I will say I'd go for a suppressor before I went for full auto if shit actually hit the fan.  In that case, I'm glad the Palmetto came with a screwed on A2 flash hider rather than pin welded on.

I'm not an expert on ARs, but I kind of regret not going with the mid length instead of the carbine based on what I've read about both.  Mine has the nitrided barrel, I've heard chromed is the way to go for longevity, but again, I'm no expert.

I love the old iron sights, this Palmetto has the Magpul flip-up rear sight on a picatinny rail with a fixed front sight, but I also want to get a red dot, I've been eyeing an affordable Sig Sauer that's gotten nice reviews, but I'm split between a red dot and a lower magnification rifle scope.  I don't want to be cheap with either but I'm limited to one or the other for now.  

Full auto ain't for the lighthearted.  It's expensive ... and you have to train.  It costs me about 17¢ to make a 5.56 round (not counting my personal time).  Costs me about $50/mo to keep sharp ... and I don't do full auto anymore.  Silencers?  I don't use them either.  They're not 'handy', they draw government attention, and they're way over-priced.  You can sneak one (or several) from LAFO at affordable prices.  They'll even help you get around the gun grabbers.  Chances are, yours will wind up in an old ammo can like mine ... waiting for 'that day'.

You did fine with buying a carbine length rifle to start (very smart).  You'll find a mid-length bbl is like a multi-tool.  It can do jobs, but it doesn't do them as well.   If you need more legs than your carbine offers, step up to an AR-10.  Let me say that again ... step up to an AR-10.

Sig Sauer is making mighty fine (and very competitively priced) red dots.  Spend the coin for the 65moa circle. That's the Romeo 5-XDR if memory serves.  If multiple bad guys get into your house (while you're sleeping) you can thank me for that advice after. -grin. If you haven't bought and mounted a weapon light ... set your priorities correctly.  When you get your red dot mounted, experiment with moving your rear iron-sight forward of the optic.  Might surprise you.

You and I feel the same way about Springfield.  I bought a .45 TRP.  Flagship model, but fraught with design flaws.  Sent it back and they just made it marginally worse.  They'll never see another penny from me.

[Ninurta]

I'd prefer new-manufactured bodies because they have improved internal geometry and better spot welds compared to older service models. But other than that, nothing.

EDIT:

Right now, these are the best magazines for a low budget on the market if you can't afford the Okay mags.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/d-h-5-56...-8416.html

You and I will have to differ on mag choices, but differing opinions is what makes the world go around. eh? I'll fault no man for picking the poison he's willing to bet his own life on - your choice just isn't mine. that's all.


From what I can see of those magazines on the page you linked to, they have the exact same internal geometry as the 40 year old former USMC GI mags I have right now, and appear to have been made on the same machinery. The main difference between the ones I have and those is the teflon coating on the inside of the mag, and the Magpul followers. I only have two Magpuls with Magpul followers, and have not had any trouble out of either one, but neither had had hard use - mostly because I never trusted them. Plastic feed lips and plastic magazine catch notches are not my idea of reliable when the heat is on. The teflon coating in the mags you recommend is a nice touch, and should prevent the stickiness that sometimes develops in the aluminum mags.

My gripe with the GI aluminum mags is that they are... aluminum. When bent, they stay bent, and that includes the aluminum feed lips. Now, one can make a convincing argument that dropping a mag on it's feed lips is bad practice, and I'd have to agree - but the fact remains that IF they get dinged, bent, or spread, that's where they stay on aluminum mags.

On the plus side, it's rare to see one separate along the back seam as I have seem Magpuls do, and the occasional spot-welded aluminum mag if the welds weaken. I'm pretty sure that's what happened to the Sanchez aluminum mag I have - the one that won't drop free of the mag well without a stout tug.

At 10 bucks a pop, the price isn't bad, but it's only about a quarter less each than the Lancers I bought in bulk.

Now, keeping in mind that all 6 of the aluminum mags I have are well over 40 years old, all of them have the black followers, and none of the followers are of the anti-tilt sort, so there is that. They served me well for 30 years or so, so I can't complain. As I said before, only one is unserviceable now, since it sticks in the mag well. All the rest are still good to go, which is why I still keep them in reserve just in case. I keep the Sticky Sanchez to demonstrate to folks why I don't use aluminum magazines any more - a practical demonstration is worth a thousand words.

I agree with you about the steel mags. I have 3 40 round steel mags made by national Magazine in California, all Colt marked on the floor plate, and they are all crap. They're hard to load, and when loaded they rattle too much, which tells me the follower - even though it's an anti-tilt follower (green) - is sticking somewhere in the magazine body. Kinda sucks, since they were all brand new straight from the factory when I got them, and they were crap right out of the wrapper.

Like I said before, though, I'll fault no man for betting his own life on his own preference. You have yours, I have mine, and it's all good. Mine are Lancers for the reasons I've outlined in the OP, and yours are the aluminum ones. I wish you the best of luck with them, and a long life to tell tales to your grandchildren, as I do mine.

.

[Ninurta]

Nope, not worth it at all modifying guns illegally.  For full auto or a homemade suppressor.  I will say I'd go for a suppressor before I went for full auto if shit actually hit the fan.  In that case, I'm glad the Palmetto came with a screwed on A2 flash hider rather than pin welded on.

You can modify them for FA legally, but it takes about a year for the paperwork to go through BATFE before you can even start, and between that and the actual modification work involved, versus what you get in the end, it's not worth it to me. The Century AR I bought in the 90's during the ban had a blind-pinned flash suppressor, but that's the only pinned one I've ever owned. Is someone still pinning them now? All I've seen of recent manufacture have screw on flash suppressors with a crush washer instead of the old peel washers they used to use.

I'm not an expert on ARs, but I kind of regret not going with the mid length instead of the carbine based on what I've read about both.  Mine has the nitrided barrel, I've heard chromed is the way to go for longevity, but again, I'm no expert.

Chrome was used to line the barrels for jungle work. It prevents corrosion and pitting in the bore. They started doing it during the Vietnam war because of feedback from the troops in the early days of M16 use. Russian bores are chrome lined, too - at least my AK-74 had a chrome bore. Reports are that the melonite bore lining in my S&W is supposed to be just as good as chrome, but I baby my guns, so I can't say for sure.

I love the old iron sights, this Palmetto has the Magpul flip-up rear sight on a picatinny rail with a fixed front sight, but I also want to get a red dot, I've been eyeing an affordable Sig Sauer that's gotten nice reviews, but I'm split between a red dot and a lower magnification rifle scope.  I don't want to be cheap with either but I'm limited to one or the other for now.  

That depends on what use you intend to put it to. Red dot is the way to go for quick target acquisition for home defense ranges out to about 150 yards or so. Magnified scopes are for longer ranges. I had one of the old 4X military scopes for one of mine, the kind that mounts on the top of the carry handle, but it just got confusing and disconcerting when I had to pick up close targets, so I never used it much. Long range shooting is what I have a scoped bolt action rifle for.

I agree on the hand guards with quadruple rails all over the place, I hate the feel of them.  I really like the Magpul handguard, very comfortable in my opinion but also has slots for attachments if you want.  You got the wider grips or the narrower grips?  I think that's one of the reasons I didn't go with the Ruger, I didn't like the narrower hand guards it came with. 

I always preferred the smaller, round hand guards with 6 vent holes, but they are hard to find with heat shields in them now, so I use the bulkier M4 handguards with 7 vent holes and double heat shields in them. It takes a little longer for that heavier barrel to heat up, but when it does it also holds the heat longer, so the heat shields are a must on it for me. Some of the handguards with quad rails have covers for the rails, but since I don't need all those rails, I don't use them. Rail covers are just something else to loose in the weeds to me.

[Snarl]

Red dot is the way to go for quick target acquisition for home defense ranges out to about 150 yards or so.

Magnified scopes are for longer ranges.

Long range shooting is what I have a scoped bolt action rifle for.

Curious:  what are the other ranges for you?

[Ninurta]

 Silencers?  I don't use them either.  They're not 'handy', they draw government attention, and they're way over-priced.  You can sneak one (or several) from LAFO at affordable prices.  They'll even help you get around the gun grabbers.  Chances are, yours will wind up in an old ammo can like mine ... waiting for 'that day'.

I've used silencers, on everything from handguns to SMG's. The only two I've ever used that were truly quiet were on a Ruger 10/22, and one that was developed by the CIA for the Beretta M92, and of which only 6 were ever built. The Ruger 10/22 had an integral, full length silencer built right on to the barrel. The barrel was turned down for it's entire length beyond the receiver and ported with 4 rows of 1/8 inch holes that entire length, and the silencer was constructed by encasing it in a 1 1/4" or maybe 1 1/2" aluminum tube all the way from the receiver to the muzzle and packing the guts into that, then sealing it. Then the stock was inletted to accommodate the silencer tube. That one was so quiet that you didn't hear anything but the bolt slapping as the action cycled.

The CIA silencer was pretty quiet, too. It silenced that 9mm Beretta to about the level of a CO2 gun, and that and the slide cycling was all you heard.

Most of them are usually only about as quiet as a loud hand clap up to about the level of an unsilenced .22. Not really worth the effort, expense, or hazard of owning one as a civilian.

.