I think there may be hope yet

[ChiefD]

This was the closest thread where I thought I could put this. It pertains to two hot button issues - climate change and immigration. A couple of days ago, I was doing the second part of a three part paid survey. For this second part, I was in a zoom session with someone on the opposite side of my views on climate change and immigration. So it was me, a liberal democrat, and a lady named Rae, a conservative republican. We were to discuss both issues, our opinions, and go from there.

I have to say I was a little nervous. I'm not the most social person, and discussing hot button issues with a stranger with opposite political views isn't exactly my idea of a fun relaxing time. So anyway, the moderator started the two of us off with a neutral thing - to discuss our thoughts of the perfect day. We had a real nice conversation that I wish we could have extended, but we were limited on how long we could talk about that. 

Then we got down to business. The first hot button issue we were to discuss was climate change. Rae and I agreed I would go first. I took a deep breath, talked about my opinions on climate change and what I thought it was doing to the environment. I talked about all the extreme weather all over the globe, and how there was so much well documented information on rising temperatures throughout the years. I also stated I thought climate change was mainly caused by humans. Then Rae stated her opinions. It was pretty amazing how similar we thought on this issue. Rae lives in California, and talked about devastating fires that came pretty close to her home. She also talked about how it is getting harder to get enough water to grow crops now. The main thing we agreed to disagree on was the cause of climate change. But it was very civil. We talked, and laughed a couple of times.

The second hot button issue we discussed was immigration. I thought we would be on total opposite sides of this, but again, I was surprised at how much we agreed on in common regarding immigration. I talked about the dairy farms in Wisconsin having problems getting people to do the dirty work that many of us consider beneath us. The majority of people working those jobs on dairy farms are immigrants. Without them, it is much more difficult for farmers to do what they need to do to stay solvent. I also talked about the thriving Hmong and Hispanic communities where I live. There are so many wonderful Hmong and Hispanic festivals and cultural events around here. I also talked about how I'm taking online Spanish lessons to be able to talk to Spanish speaking people if I volunteer. There is so much need. Rae talked about similar things going on with farms in California. There are many immigrants who pick the crops and all that. Without them, there is no harvest. In addition, Rae's neighbors, who are both Hispanic immigrants, are her best friends. We both felt that immigrants are valuable, and without them, this country would be screwed. We felt they are not taking away jobs. They are adding to the economy in a big way. We also agreed that Border Patrol is overwhelmed, overworked and underpaid. We felt more Border Patrol workers need to be added to combat the problems at the border. We also agreed that politicians on both sides liked to talk and talk but not actually do anything about the problem. 

After all was said and done, I felt very much at ease. I wish I could have talked to Rae a little more. I could see us being friends, despite our differences. I truly believe there are more Dawn's and Rae's out there. It seems when average ordinary people get together and have civil discussions, we find more common ground than we think we have. Problems could be tackled and things could be made better by average citizens banding together, regardless of political beliefs, and making things better.

[NightskyeB4Dawn]

 I truly believe there are more Dawn's and Rae's out there. It seems when average ordinary people get together and have civil discussions, we find more common ground than we think we have. Problems could be tackled and things could be made better by average citizens banding together, regardless of political beliefs, and making things better.

I agree. I don't have any friends where we agree totally on everything.

It is not a requirement of my friendship that you like what I like, or agree with me on everything.

My main requirements are kindness, respect, honesty, and civility. 

I have had a heated conversation or two in the past with friends, coworkers, and constituents, but never anything where we lost respect or cordiality towards each other.

[NightskyeB4Dawn]

I am not sure where you live, but, I used to work very closely with the Hmong community when I lived in Minnesota.

I lived in White Bear for a number of years, but when my job changed location, and I was running back and forth between St. Paul and Minneapolis, I moved into the city.

I loved Minnesota.

[Snarl]

Nothing drives climate more than the sun.  The sun is about 98% responsible for every temperature change here on Earth.  The other 2% is what kind of cloud cover there is on any given day ( and that's only a day-to-day thing at best ).

We don't need immigrants.  If you're talking about dirty jobs ... there needs to be a better financial interest developed to draw in people who will do the job.  If that raises costs to the consumer ... tough shit.

Illegals have no respect for law and order.  Ever see one pay taxes?

[Ninurta]

Nothing drives climate more than the sun.  The sun is about 98% responsible for every temperature change here on Earth.  The other 2% is what kind of cloud cover there is on any given day ( and that's only a day-to-day thing at best ).

We don't need immigrants.  If you're talking about dirty jobs ... there needs to be a better financial interest developed to draw in people who will do the job.  If that raises costs to the consumer ... tough shit.

Illegals have no respect for law and order.  Ever see one pay taxes?

I agree with you about the sun, as the sun and Earth's orbital parameters drive climate. The earth IS warming, because warming is what planets do when they are emerging from an ice age, and the earth is emerging from an ice age. It still has a way to go before it gets back up to it's historically normal temperatures.

It appears that you may be confusing "immigrants" with "illegals", however. That is understandable, as the Left has gone to great lengths to muddy those distinctive waters in their attempts to change the language. "Illegals" are not "immigrants", they are "invaders". "immigrants" go through immigration (that is actually what makes them "immigrants"), they don't sneak across borders in the dark of the night. Invaders do that. I've done my share of cross-border shenanigans, and that's how I know.

The border needs to be fixed, and by fixed I mean razor wire, mine fields, and live machinegun emplacements. The Wall wouldn't hurt, but it will be next to useless with no teeth. As the Rogues around here in these hills say, "locks is fer honest folks - guns is fer folks who aim to keep them honest".

.

[Michigan Swamp Buck]

Of course there is hope. There is hope that common sense logical reasoning is the common ground shared by all humans. If you want to just get along, ie. "You do you, I do me", then there would be respect but also a perceived division at the very least.

I find that it is best to engage with respect and always listen without interrupting. Also, I choose my words carefully to not allow a misunderstanding. If you are trying to convince someone of something, lead them to it and allow them to come to a conclusion. I try to be open minded with the opposing point of view and acknowledge that I understand it, even if I don't share it. When an agreement is necessary, try to come to a fair compromise, or stand your ground without becoming confrontational.

[NightskyeB4Dawn]

Nothing drives climate more than the sun.  The sun is about 98% responsible for every temperature change here on Earth.  The other 2% is what kind of cloud cover there is on any given day ( and that's only a day-to-day thing at best ).

We don't need immigrants.  If you're talking about dirty jobs ... there needs to be a better financial interest developed to draw in people who will do the job.  If that raises costs to the consumer ... tough shit.

Illegals have no respect for law and order.  Ever see one pay taxes?

I agree with you about the sun, as the sun and Earth's orbital parameters drive climate. The earth IS warming, because warming is what planets do when they are emerging from an ice age, and the earth is emerging from an ice age. It still has a way to go before it gets back up to it's historically normal temperatures.

It appears that you may be confusing "immigrants" with "illegals", however. That is understandable, as the Left has gone to great lengths to muddy those distinctive waters in their attempts to change the language. "Illegals" are not "immigrants", they are "invaders". "immigrants" go through immigration (that is actually what makes them "immigrants"), they don't sneak across borders in the dark of the night. Invaders do that. I've done my share of cross-border shenanigans, and that's how I know.

The border needs to be fixed, and by fixed I mean razor wire, mine fields, and live machinegun emplacements. The Wall wouldn't hurt, but it will be next to useless with no teeth. As the Rogues around here in these hills say, "locks is fer honest folks - guns is fer folks who aim to keep them honest".

.

I remind myself on occasion that I could be considered an immigrant by some.

If it were not for my grandmother being born and raised on the Rez, I guess there would be some people telling me to go back were I came from.

Though that would be tough, sense I was born here and my ancestors that were not born here, left for their new home beyond this plane, and some of them lived in more than one country, before coming to the land of brotherhood, from sea to shining sea.

I guess that is another reason to call me a rogue.

[DuckforcoveR]

Nothing drives climate more than the sun.  The sun is about 98% responsible for every temperature change here on Earth.  The other 2% is what kind of cloud cover there is on any given day ( and that's only a day-to-day thing at best ).

We don't need immigrants.  If you're talking about dirty jobs ... there needs to be a better financial interest developed to draw in people who will do the job.  If that raises costs to the consumer ... tough shit.

Illegals have no respect for law and order.  Ever see one pay taxes?

First of all, it's not "illegal", it's "undocumented ". My wife committed a misdemeanor by coming here in 2005, so do t wave your dog whistle bullshit by making it seem like you haven't traveled 5 MPH over going down the road. 

Second, yes, we bring immigrants in to do work that I may not classify as "beneath", but certainly low margin and necessary to keep people happy. Your financial interests comment is fine If most are happy paying 3X for produce, if you are in that camp then so be it. 

But stop with this "illegal" bullshit. Willing and able for the last 16 years to argue any point you think is intellectual regarding folks in America that were here centuries before most of you and any of your kind.

[MisterSpock]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/undocumented

"lacking documents required for legal immigration or residence"

If you lack the requirements of legal immigration, does that not mean the immigration, not being legal, is illegal.

Redefining words and meanings is really the problem we have here in just about every facet of our society.

[DuckforcoveR]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/undocumented

"lacking documents required for legal immigration or residence"

If you lack the requirements of legal immigration, does that not mean the immigration, not being legal, is illegal.

Redefining words and meanings is really the problem we have here in just about every facet of our society.

Pointed, harsh words. They are meant to be dog whistles and have acted as such throughout our illegal occupation of this land for centuries.

[Ninurta]

Nothing drives climate more than the sun.  The sun is about 98% responsible for every temperature change here on Earth.  The other 2% is what kind of cloud cover there is on any given day ( and that's only a day-to-day thing at best ).

We don't need immigrants.  If you're talking about dirty jobs ... there needs to be a better financial interest developed to draw in people who will do the job.  If that raises costs to the consumer ... tough shit.

Illegals have no respect for law and order.  Ever see one pay taxes?

First of all, it's not "illegal", it's "undocumented ". My wife committed a misdemeanor by coming here in 2005, so do t wave your dog whistle bullshit by making it seem like you haven't traveled 5 MPH over going down the road. 

Second, yes, we bring immigrants in to do work that I may not classify as "beneath", but certainly low margin and necessary to keep people happy. Your financial interests comment is fine If most are happy paying 3X for produce, if you are in that camp then so be it. 

But stop with this "illegal" bullshit. Willing and able for the last 16 years to argue any point you think is intellectual regarding folks in America that were here centuries before most of you and any of your kind.

I take issue with that statement. It's a false redefinition of the English language. I lived here "undocumented" for about 10 years or so, but I've never been here "illegally" There is a vast difference. Words have meanings. they are not interchangeable.

There is no one alive in America that was here "centuries" before me or "my kind". People, as a rule, just don't live for centuries. Some of my ancestors have been here for over 20,000 years, but none of them are still alive, either. I do not rely on then to "prove" my citizenship or right to be here legally. I rely on me, myself alone. I cannot rest on someone else's laurels.

Last time I checked, even a misdemeanor meant a broken law. No misdemeanors are possible if no laws are broken. So, yes, "illegal" applies. We are, all of us, or have been at one time or another "illegal", but we are not, most of us, "illegal aliens". We pay for our crimes as committed, generally, so when will the illegal aliens pay for theirs? When is fair no longer fair?

.

[Ninurta]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/undocumented

"lacking documents required for legal immigration or residence"

If you lack the requirements of legal immigration, does that not mean the immigration, not being legal, is illegal.

Redefining words and meanings is really the problem we have here in just about every facet of our society.

Pointed, harsh words. They are meant to be dog whistles and have acted as such throughout our illegal occupation of this land for centuries.

An interesting perspective.

What laws were broken that makes our "occupation" of this land illegal? I'm willing to entertain the notion if you can point to the laws.

Enquiring minds want to know.

"Dog whistles" is way overused. It's the answer folks give when they have no real answer to give. Dog whistles cannot be heard by the human ear, so no humans are capable of responding to them.

.

[Brotherman]

There is no hope just people, fucking retarded people! No hope count on retards.

[ChiefD]

Nothing drives climate more than the sun.  The sun is about 98% responsible for every temperature change here on Earth.  The other 2% is what kind of cloud cover there is on any given day ( and that's only a day-to-day thing at best ).

We don't need immigrants.  If you're talking about dirty jobs ... there needs to be a better financial interest developed to draw in people who will do the job.  If that raises costs to the consumer ... tough shit.

Illegals have no respect for law and order.  Ever see one pay taxes?

First of all, it's not "illegal", it's "undocumented ". My wife committed a misdemeanor by coming here in 2005, so do t wave your dog whistle bullshit by making it seem like you haven't traveled 5 MPH over going down the road. 

Second, yes, we bring immigrants in to do work that I may not classify as "beneath", but certainly low margin and necessary to keep people happy. Your financial interests comment is fine If most are happy paying 3X for produce, if you are in that camp then so be it. 

But stop with this "illegal" bullshit. Willing and able for the last 16 years to argue any point you think is intellectual regarding folks in America that were here centuries before most of you and any of your kind.

I couldn't agree with you more! It's really difficult for you and I to swim against the tide like this. I have days where I feel hope, and there are days when I feel really discouraged at how divided everyone is. I may take a break from here and ATS to get my equilibrium back. I've been spending more time on Reddit where people are a little more balanced. I don't want to be in a bubble or echo chamber, but I think I need to spend more of my time away from the right. It has become toxic to my mental health. At 58, life is too short for me to be hurting myself like this. I am a strong person, and certainly am not triggered nor politically correct. I don't need a safe space. I just need a little more sanity for my mental health. I have had chronic, sometimes debilitating depression for over 30 years. I can tell when I'm starting to sink into the abyss, and I can feel myself being dragged down. 

I'm just feeling disrespected and like nobody gives a shit. I have been thinking that I need to stop caring so much. I will change to an attitude where I don't give a shit either. Peace out.

[NightskyeB4Dawn]

I couldn't agree with you more! It's really difficult for you and I to swim against the tide like this. I have days where I feel hope, and there are days when I feel really discouraged at how divided everyone is. I may take a break from here and ATS to get my equilibrium back. I've been spending more time on Reddit where people are a little more balanced. I don't want to be in a bubble or echo chamber, but I think I need to spend more of my time away from the right. It has become toxic to my mental health. At 58, life is too short for me to be hurting myself like this. I am a strong person, and certainly am not triggered nor politically correct. I don't need a safe space. I just need a little more sanity for my mental health. I have had chronic, sometimes debilitating depression for over 30 years. I can tell when I'm starting to sink into the abyss, and I can feel myself being dragged down. 

I'm just feeling disrespected and like nobody gives a shit. I have been thinking that I need to stop caring so much. I will change to an attitude where I don't give a shit either. Peace out.

I don't know a lot about Reddit. I couldn't get into it, mainly because I found them anything but balanced. Ideology or mentally, unbalanced seemed to be an accurate description of Reddit, for me. Maybe I was looking in the wrong place.

I understand how you feel though. I am always the odd one out. I don't understand the Democrat vs Republican bipartisan hatred. It is like handing someone a nickel, and telling them it only has value if it is heads up or tails down.

I really don't see much difference between the supposed Left vs Right way of thinking either. Most people I know on both sides are sitting towards the middle. The further from the middle you get to each side, the closer you get to the two extremes, that will change position every time you turn around.

I don't let the folk on the internet upset me that much, as long as the people in my life and community remain civil and lawful, I don't really care who that vote for, sleep with, read, watch, drink or smoke.

[Ninurta]

...

I understand how you feel though. I am always the odd one out. I don't understand the Democrat vs Republican bipartisan hatred. It is like handing someone a nickel, and telling them it only has value if it is heads up or tails down.

I really don't see much difference between the supposed Left vs Right way of thinking either. Most people I know on both sides are sitting towards the middle.

...

For me, it's not a "Right vs. Left" or "Republican vs. Democrat" thing. It boils down to a much simpler question, one I think is not a partisan question: does law mean anything, or does it not? It's a matter of the rule of law vs. anarchy. If other folks can ignore law with impunity, is it then ok for ME to pick and choose which laws to obey and which to ignore, with no fear of repercussions? When is fair no longer fair?

So can I now just pick and choose which laws apply to me, and which do not? Or must I redefine them to give the appearance that they are not laws, but mere suggestions?

Now don't get me wrong, I've been known to ignore a law here and there, but in each case I was aware of the repercussions, and was willing to pay the price. I didn't expect to get off scot-free and not have to pay that price. Does that just mean I've been doing it wrong, and instead should have just redefined the law to be a not-law so that no laws were broken?

I wonder how that would fly in front of the Judge?

.

[NightskyeB4Dawn]

For me, it's not a "Right vs. Left" or "Republican vs. Democrat" thing. It boils down to a much simpler question, one I think is not a partisan question: does law mean anything, or does it not? It's a matter of the rule of law vs. anarchy. If other folks can ignore law with impunity, is it then ok for ME to pick and choose which laws to obey and which to ignore, with no fear of repercussions? When is fair no longer fair?

So can I now just pick and choose which laws apply to me, and which do not? Or must I redefine them to give the appearance that they are not laws, but mere suggestions?

Now don't get me wrong, I've been known to ignore a law here and there, but in each case I was aware of the repercussions, and was willing to pay the price. I didn't expect to get off scot-free and not have to pay that price. Does that just mean I've been doing it wrong, and instead should have just redefined the law to be a not-law so that no laws were broken?

I wonder how that would fly in front of the Judge?

.

That is not an issue for me. I know that the law is the law, and I will be held responsible for my own actions, especially if those actions go against the law. Fair, for me, has never been fair.

I learned as a wee child that life is not fair. One of the first painful lessons I remember my mother teaching me. And it is one of the reasons that I developed such a rebellious spirit. Being poor, growing up in the country, and trying to make my way in life, I found many times that laws are not always treated the same for everyone, and that the punish for breaking those laws are not the same for everyone. Being a female during a time when women had a place, and being barefoot and pregnant was supposed to be my lot in life, I had to find a way under, around, or over, the obstacles that were in my way.

I have broken the law in the past, because I felt, was not given another choice at the time. I paid for those infringements, and I knew that I would pay for them, before I even did them, so I was not surprised, nor disappointed.

[Snarl]

For me, it's not a "Right vs. Left" or "Republican vs. Democrat" thing. It boils down to a much simpler question, one I think is not a partisan question: does law mean anything, or does it not? It's a matter of the rule of law vs. anarchy. If other folks can ignore law with impunity, is it then ok for ME to pick and choose which laws to obey and which to ignore, with no fear of repercussions? When is fair no longer fair?

It's certainly not a Right or Left issue. People on the Right (at least the ones I know) are downright scary-dangerous.  The lefties are just flagrant about dumb shit. Both groups have seemingly crossed the line onto the side of anarchy. And ... admittedly ... I no longer have much respect for the rules given to me to obey.

About the only thing I care about anymore is my wife. I nourish my friendships and I keep-up good relations with the neighbors.  I sometimes wish I had more of both, but I'm content with what I've got too. The kids are geographically beyond consideration in this thought process.

I bet if I get into a fix near-term, it'll be over an attempted carjacking. Not planning to wait around and 'get processed'. Ought'a get some business cards made up that say, "You might be better off just leaving this one be." LOL

[NightskyeB4Dawn]

For me, it's not a "Right vs. Left" or "Republican vs. Democrat" thing. It boils down to a much simpler question, one I think is not a partisan question: does law mean anything, or does it not? It's a matter of the rule of law vs. anarchy. If other folks can ignore law with impunity, is it then ok for ME to pick and choose which laws to obey and which to ignore, with no fear of repercussions? When is fair no longer fair?

It's certainly not a Right or Left issue. People on the Right (at least the ones I know) are downright scary-dangerous.  The lefties are just flagrant about dumb shit. Both groups have seemingly crossed the line onto the side of anarchy. And ... admittedly ... I no longer have much respect for the rules given to me to obey.

About the only thing I care about anymore is my wife. I nourish my friendships and I keep-up good relations with the neighbors.  I sometimes wish I had more of both, but I'm content with what I've got too. The kids are geographically beyond consideration in this thought process.

I bet if I get into a fix near-term, it'll be over an attempted carjacking. Not planning to wait around and 'get processed'. Ought'a get some business cards made up that say, "You might be better off just leaving this one be." LOL

I hear you.

I am so frustrated with people playing into the hands of those that they claim to be fighting.

Right or left, they can't even see they are just flipped sides of the same coin.

The amount, and kind, of crazy I sometimes have to deal with, goes so far past the point of logic and reason, that the only way it can make sense, is to just accept it for what it is. Generated manipulation of the mind, for the purpose of control, management, culling and seeding.

I want to just throw in the towel, and ride off into the sunset. But I don't know how to give up. There are way too many good, sane, and uninfected folk, for me to not fight the good fight.

Just got home from another day of madness. I need some sleep. Maybe tomorrow I will be in better form.

[Snarl]

does law mean anything, or does it not?

"You might be better off just leaving this one be."

I hear you.

Maybe tomorrow I will be in better form.

Dove season opens tomorrow. It'll be a good day.