Putting God back into schools.

[Ninurta]

Religious history is still history, and as such, it still has something to teach. If it is not "history", then it is fable or mythology, and there again religious fables and myths from all cultures are still taught in schools with lessons to impart, fable or not. You can still take course in, for example, greek Mythology, and those myths have lessons to be learned.

I could concede that a deity is not required to provide that anchor if you could inform me what IS required to provide it. SOMETHING has to anchor it to provide a common reference point and prevent random moral directions at odds with one another, so what do you think that something would be in the absence of religion?

.

I guess here's a good example: do unto others...

Is it religious? I mean, it's written in every book for every religion correct? Yet, nothing to do with God. Nothing to do with a diety, and it doesn't require a God to make sense and be put into practice daily. Sure, I learned about it in Sunday School, but I am positive God as preached doesn't exist (my opinion) and yet I still live by that. 

The history versus religious history is just a continuation of me not clarifying what I meant. I would prefer my kids learn about the horrible things committed in the name of (insert gods name here). They need to so they can see how horrible it has been for our species. Do unto others. It's not complicated, not hard, and most certainly not religious.

As far as I know, that precept is only found in the Christian Bible. I know it is not in the Qur'an, but can't say whether it is in Hindu or Buddhist teachings. The closest thing that Wicca has to it, so far as I know, is the Witch's Rede, which states "An' it harm not others, do what thou wilt". So it appears to me to be rooted in Christian teachings, but I'm open to correction if I'm wrong. There are plenty or religions I know nothing about, and it may be that it can be found in one or more of them as well.

Now, there is some reason you live by a Christian teaching without being a Christian, There is some reason you hold fast to that precept while rejecting it's source. I myself am not a Christian, either - at least I don't know of any Christians that would claim me as one. None in the modern world, anyhow.

I agree with you on the point of teaching the evil done in religions' name - by all means, kids should learn the bad along with the good in regards to religions. Christianity has a lot of good to teach, but there are a lot of bad examples from it that should not be forgotten, either. Things like the Inquisition, the Genocide of the Huguenots by the Catholics, the genocide of the Waldensians, the genocide and enslavement of the Mexican and South American natives by the Catholics, the persecution of the Protestants... there is a long list, and it should by no means be ignored in history lessons touching upon religions. Negative examples have every bit as much to teach as positive examples - they teach folks what NOT to do and try to blame it on their god!

Islam is another religion that has a lot of negative examples good for teaching moments - the annihilation of the Quraysh tribe, the sack of Mecca, forced conversions on pain of death everywhere Islam went... it just has a lot of bad examples as well. BUT it has good to teach, too.

But just like kids should learn the bad points, they should also learn the good ones. Else their world view is tilted, skewed, incomplete, and therefore useless and invalid. It's lop-sided to only learn one facet of a subject to the exclusion of the rest of it, whether a positive or a negative side of the subject. Both lead to a skewed view.

All things in balance - and blind rejection of religion altogether is a bit one-sided, and lacks balance, every bit as much as blind acceptance of it does, in my opinion. Both stances are rooted in a type of "faith" rather than objective fact and education.

.

[DuckforcoveR]

Religious history is still history, and as such, it still has something to teach. If it is not "history", then it is fable or mythology, and there again religious fables and myths from all cultures are still taught in schools with lessons to impart, fable or not. You can still take course in, for example, greek Mythology, and those myths have lessons to be learned.

I could concede that a deity is not required to provide that anchor if you could inform me what IS required to provide it. SOMETHING has to anchor it to provide a common reference point and prevent random moral directions at odds with one another, so what do you think that something would be in the absence of religion?

.

I guess here's a good example: do unto others...

Is it religious? I mean, it's written in every book for every religion correct? Yet, nothing to do with God. Nothing to do with a diety, and it doesn't require a God to make sense and be put into practice daily. Sure, I learned about it in Sunday School, but I am positive God as preached doesn't exist (my opinion) and yet I still live by that. 

The history versus religious history is just a continuation of me not clarifying what I meant. I would prefer my kids learn about the horrible things committed in the name of (insert gods name here). They need to so they can see how horrible it has been for our species. Do unto others. It's not complicated, not hard, and most certainly not religious.

As far as I know, that precept is only found in the Christian Bible. I know it is not in the Qur'an, but can't say whether it is in Hindu or Buddhist teachings, The closest thing that Wicca has to it, so far as I know, is the Witch's Rede, which states "An' it harm not others, do what thou wilt". o it appears to me to be rooted in Christian teachings, but I'm open to correction if I'm wrong. There are plenty or religions I know nothing about, and it may be that it can be found in one or more of them as well.

Now, there is some reason you live by a Christian teaching without being a Christian, There is some reason you hold fast to that precept while rejecting it's source. I myself am not a Christian, either - at least I don't know of any Christians that would claim me as one. None in the modern world, anyhow.

I agree with you on the point of teach the evil done in religions' name - by all means, kids should learn the bad along with the good in regards to religions. Christianity has a lot of good to teach, but there are a lot of bad examples from it that should not be forgotten, either. Things like the Inquisition, the Genocide of the Huguenots by the Catholics, the genocide of the Waldensians, the genocide of the Mexican and South American natives by the Catholics, the persecution of the Protestants... there is a long list, and it should by no means be ignored in history lessons touching upon religions. Negative examples have every bit as much to teach as positive examples - they teach folks what NOT to do and try to blame it on their god!

Islam is another religion that has a lot of negative examples good for teaching moments - the annihilation of the Quraysh tribe, the sack of Mecca, forced conversions on pain of death everywhere Islam went... it just has a lot of bad examples as well. BUT it has good to teach, too.

But just like kids should learn the bad points, they should also learn the good ones. Else their world view is tilted, skewed, incomplete, and therefore useless and invalid. It's lop-sided to only learn one facet of a subject to the exclusion of the rest of it.

All things in balance - and blind rejection of religion altogether is a bit one-sided, and lacks balance, every bit as much as blind acceptance of it does, in my opinion.

.

Well said. I guess my point all along is that we can raise our kids without needing to introduce a diety. All of the good can still be there, the evil and warnings can still be there, and we can still do it the right way. Native people around the world did so without monotheistic religions for millenia. The rabbit hole of the different entities, spirits, etc. In those cultures will take this way off topic, but I do see your point.

[TDDA]

I got the idea from this article

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles...valde.html

Since God left the building, we've seen an uptick in violence and shootings.

I'm not much of a church-goer myself, never have been, but I think that having a moral compass that isn't based on whats trending on Facebook or Twitter would be a good start to eliminating so much violence.

Your thoughts?

While religion certainly is a compass and tool for moral, I see the problem sit's elsewhere.

All the time I read how shitty school systems are, especially in the US. How they indoctrinate your children with CRT and gender stuff. Now the same people seem to cry for more indoctrination?

I can't believe it! Suddenly it's the schools fault because kids can't walk straight? What about parental responsibility? How about everyone teaches their children values and moral again instead of placing them in front of a TV or a computer or a smartphone? I don't think it's a good idea to bestow that on the already failing school system.

Force indoctrination of a chosen religion can't be the solution. My argument is that the parents are responsible. When there are no parents anymore, surely there is a system in place to catch those right? I know it is here for juveniles because I went through that.

In this case, it was a 19 year old I think and my opinion is, religion can't heal or prevent such a crazy mindset, or mentally ill or just evil, however one want to call it. We know that, because pedophiles run rampant in the Catholic Church for example. Did that heal them?

While schools with religious background might provide a better environment and nurture the emphatic side, there is no guarantee it can prevent such events. I have yet to see any statistics that would support that idea.

So, a clear no from my side. It's the parents job, by all means, with every other topic the school messes around, regardless sexual education, gender, CRT or whatever, people go on barricades, now I see the same ones pleading for morality being taught in schools? That's not their job, their job is unbiased education.

No religion, no sexual education of minors, no gender art shows, no critical race theory, politics just to the extend to grasp the system. That's all the parents job to decide if they expose their children to the upper things, no matter how I agree or disagree with those topics. 

That's my opinion but if someone can show me statistics (raw data) that brings validity to the claim it's the religous teachings in those schools, then that might change my opinion. Unrelated to that, I would still say that it's the parents job.


Additional information: I am not a religion hater, I do not follow one but I believe in God, in my own ways. My daughter isn't baptized but she's now asking for it. I know she's not able to understand what it means other than that she's not baptized. I will grant that wish to her but then she also has to participate in the community. If that's what she is interested in, if she wants to go to church and pray there, I will make that possible.

[Ninurta]

Well said. I guess my point all along is that we can raise our kids without needing to introduce a diety. All of the good can still be there, the evil and warnings can still be there, and we can still do it the right way. Native people around the world did so without monotheistic religions for millenia. The rabbit hole of the different entities, spirits, etc. In those cultures will take this way off topic, but I do see your point.

From my perspective, it doesn't matter of a person's religion is monotheistic or polytheistic or atheisitic - they are all still religions, belief in the presence (or absence) of something they cannot see, and can neither prove the existence or the non-existence thereof. They are all founded in belief without proof - also known as "faith" - which is the very essence of a religion. As the old saw goes, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". for everything that mankind has ever encountered (the entire western hemisphere being a good example) there was a time before that there was no evidence for it's existence at all.

Christians cannot disprove the simple existence of other deities - they've only declared a major, and for them that major is the Christian God.

Agnostics I can understand - they just shrug and say "Maybe, maybe not - there's no proof either way".

Many Christians fall into the category of blind faith without evidence, same as Atheists. The "blind faith" people on both sides tickle me - they are usually the most opinionated and vociferous among the religious folk, and all without a shred of evidence to back them up, neither objective nor subjective. Other Christians have had a perceived "encounter", but it's always subjective, never objective, and therefore rejected by most folks who never had that experience. Some Atheists simply reject a deity out of personal animosity towards one - maybe it failed to provide them a pony for Christmas one year or something, and that bred an undying and unreasoning hatred of the divine in them. That, too, is a sort of "personal experience" I suppose, albeit a negative one.

Yes, it is possible to teach kids without use of a deity or deities, but there will still have to be something, some sort of objective anchor outside the self, to give the moral compass installed in them an orientation. What that "thing" might be, I still have no idea.

.

[TDDA]

About Wiccan faith, I will explain.

Wiccan teaching is not even 100 years old and you got that very wrong with the Christian connection. Wiccan orientates strongly around Paganism. The age-old religion Christianity lent a lot from, to please the heathens converting to Christianity. You put up a Christmas tree? That's a Germanic pagan tradition. Happy Easter? The egg is a Pagan fertile symbol. I could go on for hours. Blowing out candles on a cake? That's a Pagan ritual or what the Wiccan's call, candle magic. Same is true for blowing dandelions into the wind and wishing something.

The Wiccan Rede is a two sided sword. What defines harm?

That's why I don't send positive energy unasked. I will ask for permission and wait for it. Why? Because me sending unasked positive energy interferes with someones path and can lead to harm, second degree. 

Like love potions or love magic. There is no more cruel thing than wishing to take someones free will away. Even the love spells that use awareness to make someone aware of you and let natural chances go from there, I see that highly critical and would never engage in such a thing. Then there will be those Wiccan's that interpret it completely different and be like "oh it means physical harm".

See how that works? I know Wiccans and honestly my experience with them led to me being highly suspicious of someone's intentions and reasoning. Wiccan, again, is closer to a centralized religion than Paganism ever could be. This should not be a rant about Wiccans but most I had conversations with, showed me they are just in for that it makes them something special.

I practice some forms of Paganism for a long time and at one point, wanted to join a Wiccan circle. I didn't disclose my history as I didn't thought it would be important. Guess what? I was denied entry to their coven because allegedly the spirit isn't in me. I heard that from a 21 year old, plastered with symbolisms she probably didn't fully understand yet. That and further observations on the internet, led me to the opinion that many, not all, Wiccan practicioners have no idea what they dabble with and interpret a BIT too much into what they read.

I mean, the amount of stuff that is made up on the fly that is nowhere to be found in the original teachings or even Paganism, but sold as "the deal" and "the final truth" makes me want to puke. For me it's intentional lying or make-believe imposed on others as the truth and teachings. Manipulating people, a direct violation of the Wiccan Rede itself.

[Ninurta]

While religion certainly is a compass and tool for moral, I see the problem sit's elsewhere.

All the time I read how shitty school systems are, especially in the US. How they indoctrinate your children with CRT and gender stuff. Now the same people seem to cry for more indoctrination?

Not indoctrination, more along the lines of education. In the US, it is illegal, banned by the First Amendment, for kids to be led to any particular religion in a public, government, school. They can be taught about various religions (as part of a comparative sociology curriculum, for example), but no one of them may be endorsed by the school or teachers as "the" religion.

Personally, I think all elementary and high schools should be limited to teaching ONLY reading, writing, and arithmetic. anything beyond those - religions for example, languages and art for a couple more examples - should be restricted to collegiate institutions, when the child is old enough to pick elective courses, and AFTER they have learned the survival basics listed above. I also believe sports should be banned from schools - it has no bearing on a basic education.

But that's just my opinion.

With that said, I don't believe God has ever been kicked out of any schools. they still have exams, don't they? I've never taken an exam that didn't have a bunch of fervent praying just beforehand by a great many students!

The pledge of allegiance used to be recited every morning in schools, back when I was a student, for example, but I believe has since been removed because it has a line that says "one nation, under God". it does not specify WHICH god, so that is up to the individual's interpretation and doesn't constitute a governmental endorsement of any particular god, but still some rabid folk, fearful of any gods, raised a ruckus and had it removed. Yes, "fearful" - if they did not believe in SOME god, there would be no basis for fear, and therefore no basis for their objections. it would just be another formulaic pronouncement to them, without meaning, and therefore with no reason to so strenuously object to it.

.

[DuckforcoveR]

While religion certainly is a compass and tool for moral, I see the problem sit's elsewhere.

All the time I read how shitty school systems are, especially in the US. How they indoctrinate your children with CRT and gender stuff. Now the same people seem to cry for more indoctrination?

Not indoctrination, more along the lines of education. In the US, it is illegal, banned by the First Amendment, for kids to be led to any particular religion in a public, government, school. They can be taught about various religions (as part of a comparative sociology curriculum, for example), but no one of them may be endorsed by the school or teachers as "the" religion.

Personally, I think all elementary and high schools should be limited to teaching ONLY reading, writing, and arithmetic. anything beyond those - religions for example, languages and art for a couple more examples - should be restricted to collegiate institutions, when the child is old enough to pick elective courses, and AFTER they have learned the survival basics listed above. I also believe sports should be banned from schools - it has no bearing on a basic education.

But that's just my opinion.

With that said, I don't believe God has ever been kicked out of any schools. they still have exams, don't they? I've never taken an exam that didn't have a bunch of fervent praying just beforehand by a great many students!

The pledge of allegiance used to be recited every morning in schools, back when I was a student, for example, but I believe has since been removed because it has a line that says "one nation, under God". it does not specify WHICH god, so that is up to the individual's interpretation and doesn't constitute a governmental endorsement of any particular god, but still some rabid folk, fearful of any gods, raised a ruckus and had it removed. Yes, "fearful" - if they did not believe in SOME god, there would be no basis for fear, and therefore no basis for their objections. it would just be another formulaic pronouncement to them, without meaning, and therefore with no reason to so strenuously object to it.

.

So, as stupid as this is going to sound, have you ever seen Ender's Game? Ling story short, I 100,000% agree with the statement above. Basic education needs to be cemented and taught. Short of my upcoming novel that talks deeply about Generational Memories, we need to put the same basics into all kids. If parents want to introduce God, or the lack therof, then so be it. 

Anywho, my Enders Game comment is basically that we will some day have true specialty schools for kids to be born and raised into a space travel faction. A farming faction. A services faction. Etc etc. Mind you, that's a horrifying prospect that we've seen time and time again in movies, but there are kids that walk this earth who are destined to spend their last breath on Mars. Why the BS to conform to what our fucked up society says they should think about? 




ETA The problem is that throughout history we've been unable to control our instincts and make this concept not scary and utopian...

[TDDA]

While religion certainly is a compass and tool for moral, I see the problem sit's elsewhere.

All the time I read how shitty school systems are, especially in the US. How they indoctrinate your children with CRT and gender stuff. Now the same people seem to cry for more indoctrination?

Not indoctrination, more along the lines of education. In the US, it is illegal, banned by the First Amendment, for kids to be led to any particular religion in a public, government, school. They can be taught about various religions (as part of a comparative sociology curriculum, for example), but no one of them may be endorsed by the school or teachers as "the" religion.

Personally, I think all elementary and high schools should be limited to teaching ONLY reading, writing, and arithmetic. anything beyond those - religions for example, languages and art for a couple more examples - should be restricted to collegiate institutions, when the child is old enough to pick elective courses, and AFTER they have learned the survival basics listed above. I also believe sports should be banned from schools - it has no bearing on a basic education.

But that's just my opinion.

With that said, I don't believe God has ever been kicked out of any schools. they still have exams, don't they? I've never taken an exam that didn't have a bunch of fervent praying just beforehand by a great many students!

The pledge of allegiance used to be recited every morning in schools, back when I was a student, for example, but I believe has since been removed because it has a line that says "one nation, under God". it does not specify WHICH god, so that is up to the individual's interpretation and doesn't constitute a governmental endorsement of any particular god, but still some rabid folk, fearful of any gods, raised a ruckus and had it removed. Yes, "fearful" - if they did not believe in SOME god, there would be no basis for fear, and therefore no basis for their objections. it would just be another formulaic pronouncement to them, without meaning, and therefore with no reason to so strenuously object to it.

.

I was visiting a Catholic school in my first 4 years (elementary). You had to be Catholic to be there, not sure if there were exceptions. I didn't care or ask about that, it wasn't on my mind back then. 

Then, I went on to the Gymnasium, a state run school. There, we had religion classes. I graduated towards end of the 2000s, to give you an idea about the mindset of diversity back then. Oh and suddenly, it wasn't only Catholic and Evangelic and general Ethics for those unbaptized. Soon, we also had to accomodate for Muslims, Buddhist and some other religions. wow was that a chaos. It just doesn't work in a school setting with multiple religions.

About being fearful. I have not reflected enough on it yet but indeed I go out of my way for God, or how I call them Energies of Life aka Nature. If I see something that I can do that would speak on behalf of what I think is right in the eyes of God/Energies, I will go out of my way and do it.

And if it's just dropped towels in a bathroom I pick up for others, even though it wasn't my fault. At that moment I have the decision to either ignore it and pick up only a towel for me, or pick up all and arrange them neatly for everyone else that comes after me. They will never know I did that, yet I had to make that decision. Do I spend the work for others or just for me?

Same with all the blessings I got from members here and on ATS wishing me good health during and after my hospital stay. I actually noticed that and I am doing my best to pass that on, to balance.

[Ninurta]

About Wiccan faith, I will explain.

Wiccan teaching is not even 100 years old and you got that very wrong with the Christian connection. Wiccan orientates strongly around Paganism. The age-old religion Christianity lent a lot from, to please the heathens converting to Christianity. You put up a Christmas tree? That's a Germanic pagan tradition. Happy Easter? The egg is a Pagan fertile symbol. I could go on for hours. Blowing out candles on a cake? That's a Pagan ritual or what the Wiccan's call, candle magic. Same is true for blowing dandelions into the wind and wishing something.

The Wiccan Rede is a two sided sword. What defines harm?

That's why I don't send positive energy unasked. I will ask for permission and wait for it. Why? Because me sending unasked positive energy interferes with someones path and can lead to harm, second degree. 

Like love potions or love magic. There is no more cruel thing than wishing to take someones free will away. Even the love spells that use awareness to make someone aware of you and let natural chances go from there, I see that highly critical and would never engage in such a thing. Then there will be those Wiccan's that interpret it completely different and be like "oh it means physical harm".

See how that works? I know Wiccans and honestly my experience with them led to me being highly suspicious of someone's intentions and reasoning. Wiccan, again, is closer to a centralized religion than Paganism ever could be. This should not be a rant about Wiccans but most I had conversations with, showed me they are just in for that it makes them something special.

I practice some forms of Paganism for a long time and at one point, wanted to join a Wiccan circle. I didn't disclose my history as I didn't thought it would be important. Guess what? I was denied entry to their coven because allegedly the spirit isn't in me. I heard that from a 21 year old, plastered with symbolisms she probably didn't fully understand yet. That and further observations on the internet, led me to the opinion that many, not all, Wiccan practicioners have no idea what they dabble with and interpret a BIT too much into what they read.

I mean, the amount of stuff that is made up on the fly that is nowhere to be found in the original teachings or even Paganism, but sold as "the deal" and "the final truth" makes me want to puke. For me it's intentional lying or make-believe imposed on others as the truth and teachings. Manipulating people, a direct violation of the Wiccan Rede itself.

I think we actually agree for the most part on Wicca, it IS less than a hundred years old, and is a manufactured religion made by Gerald Gardner. I've known some Wiccans as well, had a step daughter that was one. I call all of them "Barnes and Noble witches" because Barnes and Noble is a bookseller that she got all of her religious precepts from. Not a single one has a tradition going back more than 100 years. Yes indeed, they DO dabble in things and use symbols they have no understanding of, and only get their notions out of books written and sold to make money, so they contain any old BS that the writer can make up - "made up on the fly", just as you say.

On the other hand, I know some actual real-world witches, too, and they are nothing like Wiccans. They have traditions going back hundreds, maybe thousands, of years, handed down through families.

My step daughter used to carry on something awful about the 17th century persecution of witches, as if it had something to do with her Wiccan religion when it did not. she acted like it had some kind of direct impact on HER. In those days of the "witch hunts", they were afraid of the actual, old school witches, whose misunderstood ways were handed down for centuries among families. That persecution had nothing at all to do with modern Wiccans, which did not even exist at the time. Gerald Gardner was a long way in the future from even being a twinkle in his mother's eye.

Both the Biblical phrase "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and the Wiccan Rede of "an' it harm not others, do as thou wilt" carry the connotation that one should be mindful of his actions impact on others before taking that action. In that way, they are similar, although not precisely the same.

No, I do not put up a Christmas tree, and never have since I left home. I do not celebrate Easter with eggs or rabbits. I don't even have birthday cakes, because at my age that many candles would be a fire hazard and might invite a visit from the ire Marshal!

.

[TDDA]

About Wiccan faith, I will explain.

Wiccan teaching is not even 100 years old and you got that very wrong with the Christian connection. Wiccan orientates strongly around Paganism. The age-old religion Christianity lent a lot from, to please the heathens converting to Christianity. You put up a Christmas tree? That's a Germanic pagan tradition. Happy Easter? The egg is a Pagan fertile symbol. I could go on for hours. Blowing out candles on a cake? That's a Pagan ritual or what the Wiccan's call, candle magic. Same is true for blowing dandelions into the wind and wishing something.

The Wiccan Rede is a two sided sword. What defines harm?

That's why I don't send positive energy unasked. I will ask for permission and wait for it. Why? Because me sending unasked positive energy interferes with someones path and can lead to harm, second degree. 

Like love potions or love magic. There is no more cruel thing than wishing to take someones free will away. Even the love spells that use awareness to make someone aware of you and let natural chances go from there, I see that highly critical and would never engage in such a thing. Then there will be those Wiccan's that interpret it completely different and be like "oh it means physical harm".

See how that works? I know Wiccans and honestly my experience with them led to me being highly suspicious of someone's intentions and reasoning. Wiccan, again, is closer to a centralized religion than Paganism ever could be. This should not be a rant about Wiccans but most I had conversations with, showed me they are just in for that it makes them something special.

I practice some forms of Paganism for a long time and at one point, wanted to join a Wiccan circle. I didn't disclose my history as I didn't thought it would be important. Guess what? I was denied entry to their coven because allegedly the spirit isn't in me. I heard that from a 21 year old, plastered with symbolisms she probably didn't fully understand yet. That and further observations on the internet, led me to the opinion that many, not all, Wiccan practicioners have no idea what they dabble with and interpret a BIT too much into what they read.

I mean, the amount of stuff that is made up on the fly that is nowhere to be found in the original teachings or even Paganism, but sold as "the deal" and "the final truth" makes me want to puke. For me it's intentional lying or make-believe imposed on others as the truth and teachings. Manipulating people, a direct violation of the Wiccan Rede itself.

I think we actually agree for the most part on Wicca, it IS less than a hundred years old, and is a manufactured religion made by Gerald Gardner. I've known some Wiccans as well, had a step daughter that was one. I call all of them "Barnes and Noble witches" because Barnes and Noble is a bookseller that she got all of her religious precepts from. Not a single one has a tradition going back more than 100 years. Yes indeed, they DO dabble in things and use symbols they have no understanding of, and only get their notions out of books written and sold to make money, so they contain any old BS that the writer can make up - "made up on the fly", just as you say.

On the other hand, I know some actual real-world witches, too, and they are nothing like Wiccans. They have traditions going back hundreds, maybe thousands, of years, handed down through families.

My step daughter used to carry on something awful about the 17th century persecution of witches, as if it had something to do with her Wiccan religion when it did not. she acted like it had some kind of direct impact on HER. In those days of the "witch hunts", they were afraid of the actual, old school witches, whose misunderstood ways were handed down for centuries among families. That persecution had nothing at all to do with modern Wiccans, which did not even exist at the time. Gerald Gardner was a long way in the future from even being a twinkle in his mother's eye.

Both the Biblical phrase "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and the Wiccan Rede of "an' it harm not others, do as thou wilt" carry the connotation that one should be mindful of his actions impact on others before taking that action. In that way, they are similar, although not precisely the same.

No, I do not put up a Christmas tree, and never have since I left home. I do not celebrate Easter with eggs or rabbits. I don't even have birthday cakes, because at my age that many candles would be a fire hazard and might invite a visit from the ire Marshal!

.

lol Barnes and Nobles witches, I get it. I also picked up the fuss Wiccans have with the witch hunt.. However I can relate to it a bit, not by heritage but there is a town near me, where the witch burning was daily business. Also hanging and burning at the same time. The place it happened, it's not visible anymore. But it's located on a hill and I am not saying it's because of some blood thing, I actually don't believe that, but I picked up the bad juju from that place, without knowing before. Of course when I heard about it, it was clear to me.

Here is one of those families although I can't vouch for anything that goes beyond my mother's Nonna when it comes to this. Not writing this to say I am special or on top, or that it gives me any extra legacy in my opinion. I still had to learn runes, several types and also old Germanic writing, that's how I try to extract the old knowledge from writings that are in my possession and sometimes, but seldom, I will find a treasure in a library. My brother had to learn it too btw, it's not exclusive to women / girls.

My daughter is going to learn them as soon as she can read and write the normal German language. However I never got anything taught by my mother about that. I've seen her practicing it, do blessings and how she behaved in the forest, but she never could teach me anything, I was too young when she died and didn't  fully understand the meaning of the texts I translated while learning the old letters and grammar, I had to teach myself the rest after she died but with a break in between. But I have inherited her books of shadows, with her thoughts in it that tell me I might be on a path that isn't too wrong.

I agree about the similarity in mindset between Christianity and Wiccan and in that sense you are right, I think it is inspired by Christianity (the Wiccan Rede being similar to the Christian idea about only doing things you want to experience yourself), not in the sense that Wiccan was entirely inspired by Christianity. It's hard to relate such a mindset to Paganism, because there was never a centralized idea of it. It's much more folkolore and woven into many things we do, say and see today, but so many do not know. I actually find that a bit saddening and would like the rest of the world to look into it, so not gatekeeping here at all.

[Ninurta]

So, as stupid as this is going to sound, have you ever seen Ender's Game? Ling story short, I 100,000% agree with the statement above. Basic education needs to be cemented and taught. Short of my upcoming novel that talks deeply about Generational Memories, we need to put the same basics into all kids. If parents want to introduce God, or the lack therof, then so be it. 

Anywho, my Enders Game comment is basically that we will some day have true specialty schools for kids to be born and raised into a space travel faction. A farming faction. A services faction. Etc etc. Mind you, that's a horrifying prospect that we've seen time and time again in movies, but there are kids that walk this earth who are destined to spend their last breath on Mars. Why the BS to conform to what our fucked up society says they should think about? 




ETA The problem is that throughout history we've been unable to control our instincts and make this concept not scary and utopian...

Yeah, I've seen it, but it's been a while and I'm a mite fuzzy on it - weren't those kids genetically engineered to have a predisposition to their future vocation, and then educated with a concentration focusing on their predispositions?

Orson Scott Card lived in Greensboro, NC when I did. He used to write a column for a local Free Press newspaper called the "Rhinoceros Times" as "Uncle Orson".

I also saw "Total Recall", so the notion that "there are kids that walk this earth who are destined to spend their last breath on Mars" scares the crap out of me - that last breath is a doozy on Mars! I don't understand why anyone would want to go there, as inhospitable as it is. They are sure to have to live in a government and/or corporately micro-managed city under a dome, or under ground, or die. I don't understand the mindset that would permit a person to do that, but then again, lots of them flock to the same basic environment in cities now, so there will be no shortage of volunteers, I imagine.

I guess it takes all kinds!

Conformity is the in thing these days - people from every direction are trying to tug on kids to conform to their brand of conformity. Religion is a very small subset of all the different agendas out there demanding conformity.

.

[Ninurta]

lol Barnes and Nobles witches, I get it. I also picked up the fuss Wiccans have with the witch hunt.. However I can relate to it a bit, not by heritage but there is a town near me, where the witch burning was daily business. Also hanging and burning at the same time. The place it happened, it's not visible anymore. But it's located on a hill and I am not saying it's because of some blood thing, I actually don't believe that, but I picked up the bad juju from that place, without knowing before. Of course when I heard about it, it was clear to me.

Here is one of those families although I can't vouch for anything that goes beyond my mother's Nonna when it comes to this. Not writing this to say I am special or on top, or that it gives me any extra legacy in my opinion. I still had to learn runes, several types and also old Germanic writing, that's how I try to extract the old knowledge from writings that are in my possession and sometimes, but seldom, I will find a treasure in a library. My brother had to learn it too btw, it's not exclusive to women / girls.

My daughter is going to learn them as soon as she can read and write the normal German language. However I never got anything taught by my mother about that. I've seen her practicing it, do blessings and how she behaved in the forest, but she never could teach me anything, I was too young when she died and didn't  fully understand the meaning of the texts I translated while learning the old letters and grammar, I had to teach myself the rest after she died but with a break in between. But I have inherited her books of shadows, with her thoughts in it that tell me I might be on a path that isn't too wrong.

I agree about the similarity in mindset between Christianity and Wiccan and in that sense you are right, I think it is inspired by Christianity (the Wiccan Rede being similar to the Christian idea about only doing things you want to experience yourself), not in the sense that Wiccan was entirely inspired by Christianity. It's hard to relate such a mindset to Paganism, because there was never a centralized idea of it. It's much more folkolore and woven into many things we do, say and see today, but so many do not know. I actually find that a bit saddening and would like the rest of the world to look into it, so not gatekeeping here at all.

The Earth accepts energies, both positive and negative, and can retain them for a long time. So "picking up" on a hilltop where a lot of people died horribly and left part of their energies there is understandable. That's not a Wiccan or Pagan or Christian or anti-Christian notion, it's just basic conservation of energy.

Did you have to learn any particular futhark of runes, or all of the futharks?

The old mountain witches here don't belong to any particular tradition. Many of them are "blended" - this area was settled by Germans coming down the Great Valley of Virginia, Scots fleeing the English crackdown after Culloden, Scots-Irish "transported" here from Scotland via the Northern Irish Plantations after the religious troubles in Scotland exemplified by John Knox, Irish coming here just to get away from the English in general, and some few English bold enough to leave the relative safety of the coastal settlements and venture into the deep dark forest. All of them brought their own individual folk magic traditions, and over time they all fused together as families intermarried. Added to that was the Indian traditions, also fused into the whole, so what has developed is probably a uniquely Appalachian version of older folks magic and healing traditions. It would likely be unfamiliar and confusing to any actual Old World pagans, although any of them might find some unsettlingly familiar aspects of it.

What none of them bear any resemblance to is Gardnerian Wicca. he was just too late to the party to get incorporated. Oddly, some aspects of Appalachian Witchery were drawn from Christianity - for example, a Bible verse that is recited to stop uncontrollable bleeding.

Be that as it may, I think that what is going on now in the US regarding kids shooting kids is a facet of their becoming ungrounded from their own culture and society, whatever that background may be. I have noticed it even here in the boonies, as kids get plugged in to the internet and start losing their own identities as hillbillies. If it's happening here, it's happening everywhere in the US as kids all over are being ripped from their foundations, whatever their own culture may be. It is not being supplanted by a "national culture" or any sort of blended culture indicative of a forming national unity, but rather by no culture at all, or maybe a newly devised "internet culture".

And that is a problem. Religion is only one facet of a culture, only one part of the foundation that kids used to have but are increasingly losing.

.

[TDDA]

lol Barnes and Nobles witches, I get it. I also picked up the fuss Wiccans have with the witch hunt.. However I can relate to it a bit, not by heritage but there is a town near me, where the witch burning was daily business. Also hanging and burning at the same time. The place it happened, it's not visible anymore. But it's located on a hill and I am not saying it's because of some blood thing, I actually don't believe that, but I picked up the bad juju from that place, without knowing before. Of course when I heard about it, it was clear to me.

Here is one of those families although I can't vouch for anything that goes beyond my mother's Nonna when it comes to this. Not writing this to say I am special or on top, or that it gives me any extra legacy in my opinion. I still had to learn runes, several types and also old Germanic writing, that's how I try to extract the old knowledge from writings that are in my possession and sometimes, but seldom, I will find a treasure in a library. My brother had to learn it too btw, it's not exclusive to women / girls.

My daughter is going to learn them as soon as she can read and write the normal German language. However I never got anything taught by my mother about that. I've seen her practicing it, do blessings and how she behaved in the forest, but she never could teach me anything, I was too young when she died and didn't  fully understand the meaning of the texts I translated while learning the old letters and grammar, I had to teach myself the rest after she died but with a break in between. But I have inherited her books of shadows, with her thoughts in it that tell me I might be on a path that isn't too wrong.

I agree about the similarity in mindset between Christianity and Wiccan and in that sense you are right, I think it is inspired by Christianity (the Wiccan Rede being similar to the Christian idea about only doing things you want to experience yourself), not in the sense that Wiccan was entirely inspired by Christianity. It's hard to relate such a mindset to Paganism, because there was never a centralized idea of it. It's much more folkolore and woven into many things we do, say and see today, but so many do not know. I actually find that a bit saddening and would like the rest of the world to look into it, so not gatekeeping here at all.

The Earth accepts energies, both positive and negative, and can retain them for a long time. So "picking up" on a hilltop where a lot of people died horribly and left part of their energies there is understandable. That's not a Wiccan or Pagan or Christian or anti-Christian notion, it's just basic conservation of energy.

Did you have to learn any particular futhark of runes, or all of the futharks?

The old mountain witches here don't belong to any particular tradition. Many of them are "blended" - this area was settled by Germans coming down the Great Valley of Virginia, Scots fleeing the English crackdown after Culloden, Scots-Irish "transported" here from Scotland via the Northern Irish Plantations after the religious troubles in Scotland exemplified by John Knox, Irish coming here just to get away from the English in general, and some few English bold enough to leave the relative safety of the coastal settlements and venture into the deep dark forest. All of them brought their own individual folk magic traditions, and over time they all fused together as families intermarried. Added to that was the Indian traditions, also fused into the whole, so what has developed is probably a uniquely Appalachian version of older folks magic and healing traditions. It would likely be unfamiliar and confusing to any actual Old World pagans, although any of them might find some unsettlingly familiar aspects of it.

What none of them bear any resemblance to is Gardnerian Wicca. he was just too late to the party to get incorporated. Oddly, some aspects of Appalachian Witchery were drawn from Christianity - for example, a Bible verse that is recited to stop uncontrollable bleeding.

Be that as it may, I think that what is going on now in the US regarding kids shooting kids is a facet of their becoming ungrounded from their own culture and society, whatever that background may be. I have noticed it even here in the boonies, as kids get plugged in to the internet and start losing their own identities as hillbillies. If it's happening here, it's happening everywhere in the US as kids all over are being ripped from their foundations, whatever their own culture may be. It is not being supplanted by a "national culture" or any sort of blended culture indicative of a forming national unity, but rather by no culture at all, or maybe a newly devised "internet culture".

And that is a problem. Religion is only one facet of a culture, only one part of the foundation that kids used to have but are increasingly losing.

.

We started with the original old ones (fut hark) and went up the ladder as they become more diverse. What boosted my understanding about languages a lot was the principles being able to expressed. When I saw through the system it clicked for me. But honestly, I need my tables, it's just too much to memorize when I do not use it all the time. I am glad my mother's books are written in Sütterlin. Ironically that's much harder to read for me than the stuff written in Kurrent.

I don't think kids getting ungrounded is a US problem solely. It's indeed the smartphones and computers. How can young children grow up in the community, when they hang out in one that is not local but through the internet? Analog that's like a child only growing up with HAM radio and never visit town in free time or play with kids in their age? 

While I type this, something comes to my mind. Not sure if it's really related. You know, I am a bit social awkward, I can also not memorize faces very good. But I can see tones as colors and see the color of someones voice and it changes with mood of the person. For me that was always a common thing until I learned it isn't. But in retro perspective some things make sense now. This is going to be a big leap now but I think that:

The internet, already in my generation, made sure that some unlearned to control their facial expressions. I mean like, maybe it's also the telephone but when you have conversations via phone or over the internet, you do not need to hide them or control them. Because the color would give away a second hint, I quickly spotted the patterns when someone is authentic or trying to deceive me. Or better say, if the smile fit's the color of the voice.

But strangely, this isn't true for older people than me. You know, when I got out of school I had more contact with older persons, it's just normal. And there I noticed, by big margin, that my patterns would not fit. But over time I found out through experience, that the older generation can control / hide their facial expressions a lot better, while my age group still has this very obvious trait.

TLDR; My theory is that the internet and any communication that is not face to face is counterproductive to the development of social skills like facial expressions. Like for example, there are levels of disgustment but some just know full disgusted or not. I mean the extreme face of disgust. It's so wicked to describe. It may all be nonsense, it's just I am not naturally good with that, I know that so I have to compensate with logic.

Probably it's nothing though.

But yeah, "the youth of today" *raised fist in the air*

[Ninurta]

I don't think kids getting ungrounded is a US problem solely. It's indeed the smartphones and computers. How can young children grow up in the community, when they hang out in one that is not local but through the internet? Analog that's like a child only growing up with HAM radio and never visit town in free time or play with kids in their age? 

While I type this, something comes to my mind. Not sure if it's really related. You know, I am a bit social awkward, I can also not memorize faces very good. But I can see tones as colors and see the color of someones voice and it changes with mood of the person. For me that was always a common thing until I learned it isn't. But in retro perspective some things make sense now. This is going to be a big leap now but I think that:

The internet, already in my generation, made sure that some unlearned to control their facial expressions. I mean like, maybe it's also the telephone but when you have conversations via phone or over the internet, you do not need to hide them or control them. Because the color would give away a second hint, I quickly spotted the patterns when someone is authentic or trying to deceive me. Or better say, if the smile fit's the color of the voice.

But strangely, this isn't true for older people than me. You know, when I got out of school I had more contact with older persons, it's just normal. And there I noticed, by big margin, that my patterns would not fit. But over time I found out through experience, that the older generation can control / hide their facial expressions a lot better, while my age group still has this very obvious trait.

TLDR; My theory is that the internet and any communication that is not face to face is counterproductive to the development of social skills like facial expressions. Like for example, there are levels of disgustment but some just know full disgusted or not. I mean the extreme face of disgust. It's so wicked to describe. It may all be nonsense, it's just I am not naturally good with that, I know that so I have to compensate with logic.

Probably it's nothing though.

But yeah, "the youth of today" *raised fist in the air*

Yes indeed, facial expressions ARE a major component of non-verbal communication, and that is missed altogether across the internet in a written medium. Same for mandatory masking - it hides the facial expressions, and therefore quite a lot of the unspoken communications. That is part of the reason children are becoming less socialized, along with text communications rather than face to face communications. another non-verbal clue is voice inflection, and that is also lost across the internet, and may be somewhat muffled by mandatory masking.

It almost seems like a plan to de-socialize kids!

.

[NightskyeB4Dawn]

I lived through a lot of generational transitions. Raised fists, raised flowers, hippies that did both.

Today's children seem to have no true feelings that register outside of themselves. The prior generations seemed more focused on changing the world by encouraging inner change for inner peace which would change the world. They wanted to "give the world a coke".

Today's generation wants to force other's to change, as the means to their own personal needs and satisfaction.

That comes from a social construct, with little to no real social interactions. Makes them hive minded and robotic, with no real flesh in the game contact, outside of Grindr and one night stand apps.

It is all in their minds, and that is what TPTB have control over. They have won the battle for our minds. The rest will follow without much of a fight.

[Schmoe1]

I've expressed my views on here before, that I don't believe any religions, but I believe in SOMETHING.  Some sort of creator.

My kids go to Catholic school because (A) I live in Philly, and they're sure as hell not going to public school, and (B) I realize they're going to one day come to their own conclusions anyway, like I did.

I agree that following a religion has its pros and cons, and I'll never knock anybody for what they believe in.  To each their own.  But as far as putting God back in school, I don't think it'll change anything if parents aren't doing their jobs in raising kids to be good people.

[Ninurta]

I lived through a lot of generational transitions. Raised fists, raised flowers, hippies that did both.

Today's children seem to have no true feelings that register outside of themselves. The prior generations seemed more focused on changing the world by encouraging inner change for inner peace which would change the world. They wanted to "give the world a coke".

Today's generation wants to force other's to change, as the means to their own personal needs and satisfaction.

That comes from a social construct, with little to no real social interactions. Makes them hive minded and robotic, with no real flesh in the game contact, outside of Grindr and one night stand apps.

It is all in their minds, and that is what TPTB have control over. They have won the battle for our minds. The rest will follow without much of a fight.

If the phrase "free your mind, and your ass will follow" is true, then so is the converse true - "chain your mind, and your ass will follow".

I learned early on that if you have physical control of someone's or something's head, then you control the entire entity. That's why steers can be wrestled to the ground by grabbing their horns, and why critters can be led around by grabbing an ear of putting a ring in their nose. It appears that the same principle works in less physical applications.

If you have any doubt that the head is the key, have someone lay down, put one finger in the center of their forehead, and tell them to get up. They can't, because you have control of their head. You can pin their entire body down with a single finger.

It would follow through extrapolation then that it doesn't take much mental control at all to conquer the entire person.

.

[Ninurta]

I've expressed my views on here before, that I don't believe any religions, but I believe in SOMETHING.  Some sort of creator.

My kids go to Catholic school because (A) I live in Philly, and they're sure as hell not going to public school, and (B) I realize they're going to one day come to their own conclusions anyway, like I did.

I agree that following a religion has its pros and cons, and I'll never knock anybody for what they believe in.  To each their own.  But as far as putting God back in school, I don't think it'll change anything if parents aren't doing their jobs in raising kids to be good people.

Shawnee chief Tecumseh said:

So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart.

Trouble no one about their religion.

Respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours.


Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life.

Seek to make your life long and it's purpose in the service of your people.

When it come your time to die, sing your death song and die like a hero going home.

Now all through human history, some folks, a very low percentage, are just born bad, born junkyard dog mean, and no one, not even their parents, can do anything with them. That's not what we are seeing here with the increasing number of wrecked kids. These kids have been failed by everyone around them, and been socialized by machines and screens, rather than flesh and blood. face to face people.

The crazy shit that society puts out there via those machines and screens wrecks their formative young minds, and then you get what we see happening.

Society wrecks them, and then acts surprised that they are a wreck.

.

[Schmoe1]

I've expressed my views on here before, that I don't believe any religions, but I believe in SOMETHING.  Some sort of creator.

My kids go to Catholic school because (A) I live in Philly, and they're sure as hell not going to public school, and (B) I realize they're going to one day come to their own conclusions anyway, like I did.

I agree that following a religion has its pros and cons, and I'll never knock anybody for what they believe in.  To each their own.  But as far as putting God back in school, I don't think it'll change anything if parents aren't doing their jobs in raising kids to be good people.

Shawnee chief Tecumseh said:

So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart.

Trouble no one about their religion.

Respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours.


Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life.

Seek to make your life long and it's purpose in the service of your people.

When it come your time to die, sing your death song and die like a hero going home.

Now all through human history, some folks, a very low percentage, are just born bad, born junkyard dog mean, and no one, not even their parents, can do anything with them. That's not what we are seeing here with the increasing number of wrecked kids. These kids have been failed by everyone around them, and been socialized by machines and screens, rather than flesh and blood. face to face people.

The crazy shit that society puts out there via those machines and screens wrecks their formative young minds, and then you get what we see happening.

Society wrecks them, and then acts surprised that they are a wreck.

.

Agreed, there's always bad seeds that are simply born with some wires crossed, no matter their upbringing.  So you agree then, that bringing God back to schools won't solve anything?  That's what I believe.  Seems like it comes down to the parents of those very few, born-bad people, closely monitoring their child for red flags.  

That can be difficult too, as kids aren't always honest with their parents in their teenage years.  "How was school today?"  

"Oh, it was great."  Even though they get bullied.

I don't think God is the solution here.  I think the only way to ensure this doesn't happen, or at least GREATLY reduce the possibility, is to place armed security at schools, along with cameras that are monitored.  All that can be done for way less than half of what we we're sending Ukraine.

Granted, that would take care of schools.  Evil people like that would simply choose another target.

[Brotherman]

I remember when god in school had its own prayer groups by the flag pole every morning outside rain or shine. I remember as a child in elementary school we used to take a walk to the local church and have class there just to get out of the classroom. 

I’ve never been a psalm slinging bible banger but I do remember I used to enjoy those things when I was young. Then again back in them days my school still had an intermerial rifle and archery team and shotguns and rifles were on premises for students too. Then again who the fuck am I to reminisce about what America used to be like.