American Healthcare In Crisis

[FlyingClayDisk]

I know patriotic Americans will hate this answer, but a fully government managed healthcare system could expel the profit motive. It might even be possible to have medical care "free at the point of treatment".

No it won't!

Did you ever see the movie Office Space?  It was a comedy, but the underpinning theme was the notion of incremental increases across a massive data set, namely a few "fractions of a cent across thousands of transactions".  Well, this is the exact same way politicians view taxes!  They think a seemingly small incremental increase across a massive data set (i.e. us taxpayers) will allow them to fix anything.  Crooked big Pharma and insurance companies absolutely LOVE this approach.

Couple the above concept with the notion of ..."We're the Government, and we're here to help you!" (aka...we're gonna' fuck everything up fifty times worse than you could have EVER imagined!)...and you have an award winning recipe for the most incomprehensibly fucked up, non-functional and colossally inefficient as well as expensive system imaginable!

Never, and I mean NEVER, trust the 'government' to "fix" anything, they'll only fuck it up 10x worse!!!!

I can only repeat my previous answer; it has been made to work in other countries, who are happy with the way it works.

Name one!

Canada? (where you have to wait 2 years to get treated for something which is going to kill you in 6 months?)

UK?  (where you have to wait 6 months to see a doctor...to even find out what's wrong with you?)

Russia?

France?

Antarctica?

Mars?

The other half of my previous answer was that the populations living under those systems prefer them, whatever flaws they might find. Having had experience of the system, they find it the lesser evil, anyway. I'm not aware of any polls or political movements demanding that people should be allowed to pay more money.

So, in a nutshell, you don't really have an answer to my question then, correct?

That, or you agree with me.

People who live in a cardboard box probably prefer them too, but I sure as hell don't want to live in a cardboard box, so I don't really give a flying 'foo-fah' what they prefer.  That is my point.

[DISRAELI]

I know patriotic Americans will hate this answer, but a fully government managed healthcare system could expel the profit motive. It might even be possible to have medical care "free at the point of treatment".

No it won't!

Did you ever see the movie Office Space?  It was a comedy, but the underpinning theme was the notion of incremental increases across a massive data set, namely a few "fractions of a cent across thousands of transactions".  Well, this is the exact same way politicians view taxes!  They think a seemingly small incremental increase across a massive data set (i.e. us taxpayers) will allow them to fix anything.  Crooked big Pharma and insurance companies absolutely LOVE this approach.

Couple the above concept with the notion of ..."We're the Government, and we're here to help you!" (aka...we're gonna' fuck everything up fifty times worse than you could have EVER imagined!)...and you have an award winning recipe for the most incomprehensibly fucked up, non-functional and colossally inefficient as well as expensive system imaginable!

Never, and I mean NEVER, trust the 'government' to "fix" anything, they'll only fuck it up 10x worse!!!!

I can only repeat my previous answer; it has been made to work in other countries, who are happy with the way it works.

Name one!

Canada? (where you have to wait 2 years to get treated for something which is going to kill you in 6 months?)

UK?  (where you have to wait 6 months to see a doctor...to even find out what's wrong with you?)

Russia?

France?

Antarctica?

Mars?

The other half of my previous answer was that the populations living under those systems prefer them, whatever flaws they might find. Having had experience of the system, they find it the lesser evil, anyway. I'm not aware of any polls or political movements demanding that people should be allowed to pay more money.

So, in a nutshell, you don't really have an answer to my question then, correct?

That, or you agree with me.

People who live in a cardboard box probably prefer them too, but I sure as hell don't want to live in a cardboard box, so I don't really give a flying 'foo-fah' what they prefer.  That is my point.

My response was that the people of those countries preferred the system they've got. I define that as "it works for them".

[NightskyeB4Dawn]

[quote pid='82345' dateline='1649108630']
The other half of my previous answer was that the populations living under those systems prefer them, whatever flaws they might find. Having had experience of the system, they find it the lesser evil, anyway. I'm not aware of any polls or political movements demanding that people should be allowed to pay more money.

So, in a nutshell, you don't really have an answer to my question then, correct?

That, or you agree with me.

People who live in a cardboard box probably prefer them too, but I sure as hell don't want to live in a cardboard box, so I don't really give a flying 'foo-fah' what they prefer.  That is my point.

[/quote]

My response was that the people of those countries preferred the system they've got. I define that as "it works for them".

I think the question here is, preferred to what?

I prefer damn near anything edible, regardless of how disgusting I may think it is, over starving to death. That does not make me think for one second that a completely controlled government run heath system would be better than what we presently have in place.

I have spent over fifty years working in the medical industry, and it terrifies to think of our healthcare system falling under the control of the unholy trinity.

My response was that the people of those countries preferred the system they've got. I define that as "it works for them".

[guohua]

Go to the hospital in China, IF you get admitted and have NO insurance or cash, your nasty bed with dirty sheets is in the hallway or stairwell.
No, food service, no clean sheets, no toilet, no nurse checking on you and No Pain Medicine and your IV needle (if you get one) is from the other patient that just died.

You or your child need surgery? You had better have CASH in your hand or the doctor will tell you to go home.

Let the Government control healthcare, think about that,,,,, a politician comes into office worth $85,000. dollars in 6 or so years leaves office worth MILLIONS!

So then we agree, right??

You pretty much said exactly what I was thinking would be the end result of such a suggestion!

We are very Happy with my husbands Federal Healthcare Provider, he turned down Medicare because he already pays through his retirement for full PPO coverage for us both.
We had BC/BS for years but they would raise their rates every year and not give you any more benefits.
He which ed us over to MHBP which uses AETNA, same coverage just less money each month.

[NightskyeB4Dawn]

We are very Happy with my husbands Federal Healthcare Provider, he turned down Medicare because he already pays through his retirement for full PPO coverage for us both.
We had BC/BS for years but they would raise their rates every year and not give you any more benefits.
He which ed us over to MHBP which uses AETNA, same coverage just less money each month.

BC/BS robs my mother blind each month. And they keep raising their fees, every single year, with no additional benefits or service. We are looking for something reliable and a lot less expensive. We have an appointment sometime next week to look into it.

[DISRAELI]

[quote pid='82345' dateline='1649108630']
The other half of my previous answer was that the populations living under those systems prefer them, whatever flaws they might find. Having had experience of the system, they find it the lesser evil, anyway. I'm not aware of any polls or political movements demanding that people should be allowed to pay more money.

So, in a nutshell, you don't really have an answer to my question then, correct?

That, or you agree with me.

People who live in a cardboard box probably prefer them too, but I sure as hell don't want to live in a cardboard box, so I don't really give a flying 'foo-fah' what they prefer.  That is my point.

My response was that the people of those countries preferred the system they've got. I define that as "it works for them".

I think the question here is, preferred to what?
[/quote]

I meant "preferred to an insurance-based system." As I remarked previously, I'm not aware of any polls or political movements demanding one. In fact any "distrust of the government" is more likely to be expressed in a fear that they will NOT keep the free system.

[NightskyeB4Dawn]

I meant "preferred to an insurance-based system." As I remarked previously, I'm not aware of any polls or political movements demanding one. In fact any "distrust of the government" is more likely to be expressed in a fear that they will NOT keep the free system.

My distrust for the government is based on history. I don't fear they would renege on keeping healthcare a free system, because it won't be. The people will pay. They will pay up front or in the end.

I fear the government because our government is corrupt. It is in the pockets of big business and big pharma, and they will sell us down the river, under the guise that they know what is best for us. They have already proven that they will criminalize anyone that defies them. They will label you as enemies of the State, and will institute their own version of the social credit system, using your health and your life as their means of control.

Our government is corrupt and can't be trusted. It doesn't care about men, women, children, the elderly, the sick or he poor. Anything they do will be for their benefit, or for the benefit of those they answer to.

A healthcare system completely controlled by the government is dangerous, and it won't stop with them controlling who will receive healthcare or not. That will just be the way they get their foot in the door.

[DontTreadOnMe]

I am putting this in the "Man Made Disasters" discussion forum, because we are headed towards a huge disaster that is completely man-made.

Mrs. G placed a meme in "It's Just The Truth" discussion forum that motivated me to make this thread, because even if no one talks about it, it is coming, and it is already impacting every single one of us.

Forbes.com, wrote and article titled "Unless We Future-Proof Healthcare, Study Shows That By 2025, 75% Of Healthcare Workers Will Leave The Profession, by Jack Kelly. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2...be8132bcb2

We don't have to wait until 2025 to see the mass exodus, and exactly why. Big business has taken over medicine in America. You are strictly a consumer, and the only thing big business is interested in, is profit. You "are" expendable. Patients are the most highly expendable, and they do not care about throwing doctors and nurse under the bus to achieve their goal of maximum profit.

Great post!

If it wasn't obvious before the "pandemic" it sure as hell is obvious now.
It's like our PC doctors have taken a pill or become lobotomized....following the narrative for care, not thinking outisde the box anymore.
CMS has taken over what little vestiges of personal care not already commandeered by the "big box" hospital systems!

I am seriously contemplating concierge care.  They are springing up all over.  I am willing to pay a monthly premium, in addition to MSM medical coverage, to get what used to be good care and a bedside manner.

[kdog]

Before I retired at 56, I had a Cadillac golden healthcare plan through my union at no cost. BCBS  $300 deductible and $ 600 per family. But, it was was going to cost me $1700 a month to keep it, which was half my pension.  I said screw it and are taking our chances. We are both pretty healthy and I never used it anyways. So far, it has been cheaper for regular doctor visits and blood work. Keeping my fingers crossed though.

[rickymouse]

Doctors make medical mistakes all the time and they are not charged with killing people.  Pharmaceudical drug side effects kill a real lot of people yet the drug makers do not get charged with homicide.  We got a major problem when a nurse is charged with Homicide for making a mistake with a medication....I would quit if I was a nurse when that kind of thing is occurring.  I would bet that very few incidents of this occur compared to doctors writing down the wrong medicine or ignoring the concerns of side effects of medicines the patients are having.  I have had side effects to some meds in the past and the doctors ignored my concerns, so I changed doctors.  The majority of doctors listen to you, but thirty percent blow you off and tell you the side effects will go away....tried that...it is BS, the side effects got worse the longer I was on the meds...and the side effects sometimes were worse than the condition they were treating.

The staff of commerce is the staff of the medical industry in this country...not the staff of medicine which is one snake around a stick.  People can't comprehend that the medical industry is actually telling us by this symbol that it is an industry, not medicine....they must think everyone is dumb or ignorant.

[FlyingClayDisk]

Before I retired at 56, I had a Cadillac golden healthcare plan through my union at no cost. BCBS  $300 deductible and $ 600 per family. But, it was was going to cost me $1700 a month to keep it, which was half my pension.  I said screw it and are taking our chances. We are both pretty healthy and I never used it anyways. So far, it has been cheaper for regular doctor visits and blood work. Keeping my fingers crossed though.

There's an old saying that goes...'when your right pocket is empty you get up and walk away from the casino'.  Unfortunately, what I fear you've done is taken all your winnings from your left pocket, after a non-stop winning streak your whole life, and stuck them back in your right pocket...and walked right back into the casino, and sat down at a one-armed bandit with the worst odds of winning, at a game where no skill is involved, only pure luck.  And, as we all know, "pure luck" truly are the worst odds of all.

Prior to age 56, you were playing a casino game where a career of skill kept you in the game and winning.

After the age of 56, you are now playing a game where you are dependent solely on luck alone.

It wasn't about whether you had great insurance or not, but rather that you were more in control of your health than you are as you grow older.  Just two years ago, at the age of 57, I was still 'indestructible' (or so I thought).  Two years later, due to factors beyond my control (or were they?), I feel like I might as well be 95 years old and knocking on Peter's door.  Life has this funny way of catching up with you.  Your twilight years are best not spent playing a game where the odds are stacked logarithmically against you each successive year.

I certainly wish you the best though!  I mean that.  My willingness to take risks decreases annually now; one could say I'm past my risk vs. benefit 'apogee'...and just praying the chutes deploy before I pancake!

[NightskyeB4Dawn]

Doctors make medical mistakes all the time and they are not charged with killing people.  Pharmaceudical drug side effects kill a real lot of people yet the drug makers do not get charged with homicide.  We got a major problem when a nurse is charged with Homicide for making a mistake with a medication....I would quit if I was a nurse when that kind of thing is occurring.  I would bet that very few incidents of this occur compared to doctors writing down the wrong medicine or ignoring the concerns of side effects of medicines the patients are having.  I have had side effects to some meds in the past and the doctors ignored my concerns, so I changed doctors.  The majority of doctors listen to you, but thirty percent blow you off and tell you the side effects will go away....tried that...it is BS, the side effects got worse the longer I was on the meds...and the side effects sometimes were worse than the condition they were treating.

The staff of commerce is the staff of the medical industry in this country...not the staff of medicine which is one snake around a stick.  People can't comprehend that the medical industry is actually telling us by this symbol that it is an industry, not medicine....they must think everyone is dumb or ignorant.

Very well said.

This will drive a lot of doctors and nurses from the field. 

This is a case of pure scapegoating. The message is loud and clear. Big business is God. They are untouchable, and workers are an expendable unnecessary nuisance.

I would not work in a hospital if they paid a million dollars a year. They only set you up to fail, then cast you aside.

I bet you won't be able to sue the companies that provide the technology for HARPA. They are not human after all.

[Freeborn]

I live in the UK and I'm 56 years old.
Never really had much wrong with me over the years other than the usual run of the mill ailments that required the odd prescription.
I more or less always worked and never minded paying the prescription charges and my taxes and National Insurance contributions that helped fund the NHS.

I've always been a big supporter of the NHS and the principles behind it.
I know there are many Americans that simply can't get their heads around the benefits of a Universal Healthcare system that is free at the point of use.
Its never been a problem for me that others may have had more out of something than I who have possibly paid more in to....if it helps the old, sick and infirm then its not an issue.

Of course I've heard the stories over the years of the waste, the cronyism and the dodgy dealings with Big Pharma etc.
I know lots of people who work in the NHS - my daughter is a theatre Nurse.

A few years ago I was looking for a new job and I'd seen a post advertised in the NHS which appealed to me; I had a lot of transferable skills and it was literally a 10 minute walk from where i lived at the time.
I applied for the job and a couple of days later a cousin of mine phoned me up and said she'd heard I'd applied for this job.
My cousin has a quite senior position in an Admin role at another local hospital about 15-20 miles away.
She told me that they wouldn't even consider me for the position despite probably being the most qualified to apply for it. 
This was because I would be coming from the private sector and that I would demand a much higher level of performance from staff - not direct medical staff but Admin, Managers etc - than what they were used to.....and that frightened so many mid and senior level managers who had only known the NHS and other public sector employment.
Sure enough I didn't even get a reply.

That set some alarm bells ringing.

Last November something out of the blue happened that required me spending 11 days in hospital.
The staff were brilliant and the treatment second to none.
My only complaints were the appalling flow of information to me as the patient and the attitude of some Doctors who tended to dismiss me and spoke about me as if I wasn't there.
I am someone who demands to know everything and I was very forthright in telling them that they discuss everything with me and that I will be a full and active party to any decisions regarding my treatment.

Since then I have been back in hospital twice requiring two surgical operations and spent a total of another 42 days in hospital.
The treatment I have received has been truly excellent, I really can't fault it or the level of commitment and consideration from all the staff from the auxiliaries right up to the surgeons and specialists etc. 
But again, the flow of information was terrible and everything is bound up in covering arse red tape and box ticking.
The waste was astronomical.

People in the UK have always had the option of private health care if they so desired, there's nothing wrong with that.

But we have a government that is desperately trying to introduce private health care through the back door bit by bit and that should be resisted at all costs.
The NHS is a truly amazing and brilliant institution - it just needs managing professionally.
Its funding needs ring fencing but spent correctly and wisely.
And its imperative that current in vogue 'woke' thinking is kept well away from all NHS related issues.
Is it any wonder that so many politicians have close ties to and vested interests in Big Pharma and Private Healthcare providers?

Universal Healthcare systems can and do work across the world.

The NHS has its faults...but as far as I can tell the benefits far outweigh the negatives and its far, far better than the alternatives.

Sorry for the length of the post....I can waffle on at times.

[NightskyeB4Dawn]

I live in the UK and I'm 56 years old.
Never really had much wrong with me over the years other than the usual run of the mill ailments that required the odd prescription.
I more or less always worked and never minded paying the prescription charges and my taxes and National Insurance contributions that helped fund the NHS.

I've always been a big supporter of the NHS and the principles behind it.
I know there are many Americans that simply can't get their heads around the benefits of a Universal Healthcare system that is free at the point of use.
Its never been a problem for me that others may have had more out of something than I who have possibly paid more in to....if it helps the old, sick and infirm then its not an issue.

Of course I've heard the stories over the years of the waste, the cronyism and the dodgy dealings with Big Pharma etc.
I know lots of people who work in the NHS - my daughter is a theatre Nurse.

A few years ago I was looking for a new job and I'd seen a post advertised in the NHS which appealed to me; I had a lot of transferable skills and it was literally a 10 minute walk from where i lived at the time.
I applied for the job and a couple of days later a cousin of mine phoned me up and said she'd heard I'd applied for this job.
My cousin has a quite senior position in an Admin role at another local hospital about 15-20 miles away.
She told me that they wouldn't even consider me for the position despite probably being the most qualified to apply for it. 
This was because I would be coming from the private sector and that I would demand a much higher level of performance from staff - not direct medical staff but Admin, Managers etc - than what they were used to.....and that frightened so many mid and senior level managers who had only known the NHS and other public sector employment.
Sure enough I didn't even get a reply.

That set some alarm bells ringing.

Last November something out of the blue happened that required me spending 11 days in hospital.
The staff were brilliant and the treatment second to none.
My only complaints were the appalling flow of information to me as the patient and the attitude of some Doctors who tended to dismiss me and spoke about me as if I wasn't there.
I am someone who demands to know everything and I was very forthright in telling them that they discuss everything with me and that I will be a full and active party to any decisions regarding my treatment.

Since then I have been back in hospital twice requiring two surgical operations and spent a total of another 42 days in hospital.
The treatment I have received has been truly excellent, I really can't fault it or the level of commitment and consideration from all the staff from the auxiliaries right up to the surgeons and specialists etc. 
But again, the flow of information was terrible and everything is bound up in covering arse red tape and box ticking.
The waste was astronomical.

People in the UK have always had the option of private health care if they so desired, there's nothing wrong with that.

But we have a government that is desperately trying to introduce private health care through the back door bit by bit and that should be resisted at all costs.
The NHS is a truly amazing and brilliant institution - it just needs managing professionally.
Its funding needs ring fencing but spent correctly and wisely.
And its imperative that current in vogue 'woke' thinking is kept well away from all NHS related issues.
Is it any wonder that so many politicians have close ties to and vested interests in Big Pharma and Private Healthcare providers?

Universal Healthcare systems can and do work across the world.

The NHS has its faults...but as far as I can tell the benefits far outweigh the negatives and its far, far better than the alternatives.

Sorry for the length of the post....I can waffle on at times.

Thank you for your post. It really was not that long, and I thank you for sharing your experience. 

The majority of the healthcare workers at any facility, usually are truly amazing at their jobs, considering the fact they are severely overworked, and usually abused by those in almost every point of the circle they have to navigate. They have no control at all, over what the administration does. They are victims at the first level of a corrupt system that is profit based.

You shared you do pay for your healthcare service through your National Insurance contributions. So you don't pay at point of service, but you do pay before service. It is not much different here. Most people pay through their payroll contributions and they pay into Medicare years prior to service.

I would like to see Universal Healthcare work in the US. The best system in the world is dead in the water if it is run by corrupt greedy people that are profit driven, often at the expense of the people. I used to praise the services I received at the VA, up until 2012. Being a female, the services seemed to be little more attentive than what some of our male counterparts received, at the time. That slowly changed. They came through on equity, we are all now treated equally atrociously.

I used to find myself defending the VA, being in the medical profession, and knowing the challenges the institutions faced. Back then the healthcare workers and Administration really were doing the best they could. Then the unholy trinity took over healthcare, and slaying this monster will not be easy. The government, Insurance companies, and Big Pharma, are one beast with three heads. It wants you sick, weak, afraid, and totally dependent on them. I think their motto is. "Comply or Die."

[NightskyeB4Dawn]

This guy does a pretty good job of describing what is going on with nurses in the medical industry.

He is spot on with a lot of things, but he stays away from the pay gap between hospital nurses, and travel nurses, and he shies away from the how poorly nurses are paid in relationship to administration.

But he does show that things are bad and they don't look like they are not going to get better.




Advice.
Pray you don't get sick, and don't go to any hospital that will not let a family member stay with the patient. Keep family present at all times, and watch every darn thing that is going on. Keep a diary if you have to, and do not be afraid to speak up if something does not seem right.

Kill them with kindness. Even if you are totally pissed. Do not alienate the staff, it will come back to bite the patient every time.

[interupt42]

I know patriotic Americans will hate this answer, but a fully government managed healthcare system could expel the profit motive. It might even be possible to have medical care "free at the point of treatment".

No it won't and it would actually make it worse , because it doesn't address the real issue. Whether it is privately or gov't run its still the same issue.

The reason our healthcare is failing Americans and making big bucks for the insurance providers ,politicians, the other big healthcare and pharmaceutical providers is simple. CONFLICT OF INTEREST

The people we are counting on (congress,MSM,Democrat party, Republican party ) to fix the system are the same ones who created the system and are benefiting from the way the system is working. The worse thing we could do is give those same people more power and more money to fix our problems with gov't managed healthcare.

Giving gov't or congress more money and more power is the equivalent of going to the MOB and giving them more money and more power to fix crime in your city that the mob created and is benefiting from.


We need to cut down on conflict of interest if we really want to fix anything including healthcare. The last thing you should want to do is give a gov't riddled with conflict of interest more money and more power over you.

[NightskyeB4Dawn]

Another case of a nurse being thrown under the bus. It looks like they are trying their damnedest to make nurses leave the field. 

There is so much that was wrong in this case, but how the nurse is being the only one holding the bag, is a pure mystery to me.

Michelle Heughins was working in a North Carolina Corrections Facility when she was called to assist with an inmate, John Neville, who had fallen from his bunk and was experiencing a head injury. The patient was horrifically mistreated by jail guards resulting in his passing. In an effort to seek some sort of justice, the family has pressed charges on all involved. However, this week a grand jury indicted the nurse, but not the jail guards for the mistreatment, despite the nurses role as the only person trying to help him. Today we discuss the case, and the many errors in the prison system through healthcare eyes.

Maybe the Alex Wubbels case in Utah, has scared nurses from bucking the police, or guards. I know there is a system in prison, and I am sure the nurses are not given any special regard. I work very close with the police in my county and I will admit I have run into a conflict or too, but I have a pretty good reputation for working well with the police. I explaining the who, what, when, where, and why of a situation, so must just go along with with I suggest.

[ancientlight]

I feel sorry for all the newly (at most 5 or so years)  graduated nurses . All that hard work and for nothing basically. The same goes for many fields thanks to the corrupt system.

[NightskyeB4Dawn]

I feel sorry for all the newly (at most 5 or so years)  graduated nurses . All that hard work and for nothing basically. The same goes for many fields thanks to the corrupt system.

All that hard work. All that money. 

Corruption abounds. Then you have folk making mega millions, wanting to place a cap on how much you can make.

Because it is a huge club.

And you are not in it, and they will not let you join.

[NightskyeB4Dawn]

I am so happy to hear about this.

I have fought a many of fight, trying to get nurses to do exactly this.

I have had to walk out on more than one job for this exact reason. But I always had to do it alone. I am so happy to see that someone somewhere, was able to command a united front.

I left a hospital on one occasion that wanted to know why I left. I told them on my exit report, that I left the position because I did not want to walk into a patient's room, find them dead, and that rigor mortis had set in.

Guess what happen six months after I left.

This is not new. And this is not restricted to Florida.