King Arthur and Pharaoe ?

[Surya]

Hello All,
 
Recently, I read a part of an old book written in Old French. This one was saying that King Arthur really existed except that he was not in search of the Grail but simply a warrior in the pay of England, named by some "terrible bear". Behind a legend, there is always a bit of truth for those who seek ...

Now, this same book mentioned that there was a certain Gatelus and Scota (daughter of a Pharaoh) who came to Portugal and then, they went to Ireland. When we look at an old map, Ireland was called "Hibernia" and it was considered as a "Sacred Land".

So why did England deport as many Irish as slaves or others? Just as the Acadians of Canada?

Finally, to return to the story of "Gatelus and Scota," I would think that perhaps Pharaoh Akhenaton did not die of poisoning as history taught us and that he simply refugee in Portugal with all his family ... just like the "Three Marie" in France ".
 
I’m just giving you a part of the hsitory that I read in french and I would like to know what you think about that ?
 
Surya ☼

P.S. Sorry for the traduction ;-(

[Mystic Wanderer]

Sorry I can't dive in here and help you out.  This isn't my area of expertise, although I am interested in Pharaoh Akhenaton.  I'm still learning about all that history. 

I'm sure BIAD, or some others will be able to offer you something to chew on.

Welcome to the boards.  

[Surya]

Thank you Mystic for your attention and your open-mind...

For writing a new history...

Surya ☼

[guohua]

Gatelus and Scota (daughter of a Pharaoh) , Interesting, never heard of this.
So naturally I googled.

Scota: Mother of Scotland and Daughter of a Pharaoh

During the 1440s, a Scottish chronicler, Walter Bower, sought to trace the history of the Scottish people from the earliest times. The result of his endeavour was the creation of a compendium of Scottish history, the Scotichronicon. Perhaps one of the most astonishing claims made by Bower in his Scotichronicon is that the Scottish people were actually descendants of the ancient Egyptians, and could trace their ancestry to the daughter of an Egyptian pharaoh, Scota.

Now another part of the article and then I'll give you the Source Link.

Scota by Another Name

Not everyone agrees that the Scots originated from Scythia, however. One writer, for instance, speculated that Gaythelos / Gaodhal Glas was neither a Greek king, nor a Scythian, but an Egyptian pharaoh himself. In Scota, Egyptian Queen of the Scots, Ralph Ellis traces the story of Scota and Gaythelos to a 3rd century BC source, Manetho’s Aegyptiaca.

Using this ancient source, it has been argued that Scota was actually Ankhesenamun, the widow of Tutankhamen. Gaythelos, on the other hand, has been argued to be Ay, the successor, and according to Ellis, also the father of Tutankhamen. Due to religious conflict, Ay’s reign was cut short, and the pharaoh and his court were soon forced into exile. Like the Irish legends, Ay and Ankhesenamun wandered around before settling in Spain. Several generations later, there was a migration to Ireland, and thence to Scotland.

 Source

I hope you find this article helpful.
I did!!!!

[Daitengu]

Somewhat recall having read old manuscript describing those events ...... along with some interesting discussions in irish pubs over pints about it way back in the 80's .......  found it quite interesting ...... 

*wanders off for drink to get the little grey cells working ..... *

[senona]

Gatelus and Scota (daughter of a Pharaoh) , Interesting, never heard of this.
So naturally I googled.

Scota: Mother of Scotland and Daughter of a Pharaoh

During the 1440s, a Scottish chronicler, Walter Bower, sought to trace the history of the Scottish people from the earliest times. The result of his endeavour was the creation of a compendium of Scottish history, the Scotichronicon. Perhaps one of the most astonishing claims made by Bower in his Scotichronicon is that the Scottish people were actually descendants of the ancient Egyptians, and could trace their ancestry to the daughter of an Egyptian pharaoh, Scota.

Now another part of the article and then I'll give you the Source Link.

Scota by Another Name

Not everyone agrees that the Scots originated from Scythia, however. One writer, for instance, speculated that Gaythelos / Gaodhal Glas was neither a Greek king, nor a Scythian, but an Egyptian pharaoh himself. In Scota, Egyptian Queen of the Scots, Ralph Ellis traces the story of Scota and Gaythelos to a 3rd century BC source, Manetho’s Aegyptiaca.

Using this ancient source, it has been argued that Scota was actually Ankhesenamun, the widow of Tutankhamen. Gaythelos, on the other hand, has been argued to be Ay, the successor, and according to Ellis, also the father of Tutankhamen. Due to religious conflict, Ay’s reign was cut short, and the pharaoh and his court were soon forced into exile. Like the Irish legends, Ay and Ankhesenamun wandered around before settling in Spain. Several generations later, there was a migration to Ireland, and thence to Scotland.

 Source

I hope you find this article helpful.
I did!!!!

Oh dear, you guys are gonna make me have to re-look into all that.
It has been many moons ago since I last really read about it.


Thanks for providing the info....need to refresh my memory.

[gordi]

Hello All,
 
Recently, I read a part of an old book written in Old French. This one was saying that King Arthur really existed except that he was not in search of the Grail but simply a warrior in the pay of England, named by some "terrible bear". Behind a legend, there is always a bit of truth for those who seek ...

Now, this same book mentioned that there was a certain Gatelus and Scota (daughter of a Pharaoh) who came to Portugal and then, they went to Ireland. When we look at an old map, Ireland was called "Hibernia" and it was considered as a "Sacred Land".

So why did England deport as many Irish as slaves or others? Just as the Acadians of Canada?

Finally, to return to the story of "Gatelus and Scota," I would think that perhaps Pharaoh Akhenaton did not die of poisoning as history taught us and that he simply refugee in Portugal with all his family ... just like the "Three Marie" in France ".
 
I’m just giving you a part of the hsitory that I read in french and I would like to know what you think about that ?
 
Surya ☼

P.S. Sorry for the traduction ;-(

Hi Surya!

Nice to meet you.

I'm from Scotland and (by my understanding) the name Scotland came from the Scotti (or Scoti) tribe(s) who came to Scotland from Ireland.
They were apparently given the name Scotti by the Romans?
There are ancient gaelic legends that mention Scota, the Egyptian princess or pharoahs daughter but I'm not too familiar with them.
Perhaps, if she really did flee to Ireland/Scotland that's where the Romans came up with the name Scotti?

Interesting subject, thanks for sharing,
G

[Surya]

Hello all,
 
I have read the thread of Ralph Ellis but I’am not sure if he told the thruth ?  First, the auther of the the old book said that Scota was the daugther of a Pharao named : Amenophis or Amenhotep.
 
https://books.google.ca/books?id=LwTNJUy...ta&f=false
 
After several reseachers in the field of archelogy, I found that two tombs of the Pharaoe was not already discorverd :  Thoutmosis II and Amenhotep IV and after I discovered that the tomb of Nefertiti (spouse of Akhetanen) was never discovered… 
 
To follow…
 
Now :         
 
“Perhaps one of the most astonishing claims made by Bower in his Scotichronicon is that the Scottish people were actually descendants of the ancient Egyptians…”
 
Yes and No !  Because today, we are confused between who were the real “scottish people” ? Personnaly, I’am sure that the “scottish peole” were not from Scotland but from Ireland… perhaps the reason was this Ireland was called “Hibernia and Sacred lsland ?
 
A simple reflexion and I would like to know what you think about that….
 
Surya ☼

[guohua]

@"Surya" , I was under the impression the Bower wrote finding in the 1400's (I think) and he used ancient text and stories told by elders.
My husband over to my left says that he is reading that Bower wasn't the first guy to introduce this theory.

Something about The Declaration of Arbroath. 
Mr. G. says that he read a Document or Letter was wrote in the 1300's by the Barons and noblemen of Scotland.
They were asking the Pope to become involved in the War of Independence on their Behalf.
Now My Husband said, they used their Family lineage by saying something in the letter about referring to "The Ancients" who "Journeyed from Greater Scythia and the Pillars of Hercules to their home in the west where they still live today".

OK, that's all we're getting out of Mr. G. he said that's all he remembers.    Big Help!

So I googled The Declaration of Arbroath.
OK, I found the English Translation of the above Document, Interesting Reading.

The Declaration of Arbroath 1320 — English Translation

To the most Holy Father and Lord in Christ, the Lord John, by divine providence Supreme Pontiff of the Holy Roman and Universal Church, his humble and devout sons Duncan, Earl of Fife, Thomas Randolph, Earl of Moray, Lord of Man and of Annandale, Patrick Dunbar, Earl of March, Malise, Earl of Strathearn, Malcolm, Earl of Lennox, William, Earl of Ross, Magnus, Earl of Caithness and Orkney, and William, Earl of Sutherland; Walter, Steward of Scotland, William Soules, Butler of Scotland, James, Lord of Douglas, Roger Mowbray, David, Lord of Brechin, David Graham, Ingram Umfraville, John Menteith, guardian of the earldom of Menteith, Alexander Fraser, Gilbert Hay, Constable of Scotland, Robert Keith, Marischal of Scotland, Henry St Clair, John Graham, David Lindsay, William Oliphant, Patrick Graham, John Fenton, William Abernethy, David Wemyss, William Mushet, Fergus of Ardrossan, Eustace Maxwell, William Ramsay, William Mowat, Alan Murray, Donald Campbell, John Cameron, Reginald Cheyne, Alexander Seton, Andrew Leslie, and Alexander Straiton, and the other barons and freeholders and the whole community of the realm of Scotland send all manner of filial reverence, with devout kisses of his blessed feet.

OMG! 

Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown.
They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today.
The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes and the English, they took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts; and, as the historians of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all bondage ever since.

In their kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of their own royal stock, the line unbroken a single foreigner. The high qualities and deserts of these people, were they not otherwise manifest, gain glory enough from this: that the King of kings and Lord of lords, our Lord Jesus Christ, after His Passion and Resurrection, called them, even though settled in the uttermost parts of the earth, almost the first to His most holy faith.
Nor would He have them confirmed in that faith by merely anyone but by the first of His Apostles — by calling, though second or third in rank — the most gentle Saint Andrew, the Blessed Peter's brother, and desired him to keep them under his protection as their patron forever.

The Most Holy Fathers your predecessors gave careful heed to these things and bestowed many favours and numerous privileges on this same kingdom and people, as being the special charge of the Blessed Peter's brother. Thus our nation under their protection did indeed live in freedom and peace up to the time when that mighty prince the King of the English, Edward, the father of the one who reigns today, when our kingdom had no head and our people harboured no malice or treachery and were then unused to wars or invasions, came in the guise of a friend and ally to harass them as an enemy.
The deeds of cruelty, massacre, violence, pillage, arson, imprisoning prelates, burning down monasteries, robbing and killing monks and nuns, and yet other outrages without number which he committed against our people, sparing neither age nor sex, religion nor rank, no one could describe nor fully imagine unless he had seen them with his own eyes.

But from these countless evils we have been set free, by the help of Him Who though He afflicts yet heals and restores, by our most tireless Prince, King and Lord, the Lord Robert. He, that his people and his heritage might be delivered out of the hands of our enemies, met toil and fatigue, hunger and peril, like another Macabaeus or Joshua and bore them cheerfully.

Him, too, divine providence, his right of succession according to or laws and customs which we shall maintain to the death, and the due consent and assent of us all have made our Prince and King.
To him, as to the man by whom salvation has been wrought unto our people, we are bound both by law and by his merits that our freedom may be still maintained, and by him, come what may, we mean to stand. Yet if he should give up what he has begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom — for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.

Therefore it is, Reverend Father and Lord, that we beseech your Holiness with our most earnest prayers and suppliant hearts, inasmuch as you will in your sincerity and goodness consider all this, that, since with Him Whose vice-gerent on earth you are there is neither weighing nor distinction of Jew and Greek, Scotsman or Englishman, you will look with the eyes of a father on the troubles and privation brought by the English upon us and upon the Church of God.
May it please you to admonish and exhort the King of the English, who ought to be satisfied with what belongs to him since England used once to be enough for seven kings or more, to leave us Scots in peace, who live in this poor little Scotland, beyond which there is no dwelling-place at all, and covet nothing but our own.

We are sincerely willing to do anything for him, having regard to our condition, that we can, to win peace for ourselves. This truly concerns you, Holy Father, since you see the savagery of the heathen raging against the Christians, as the sins of Christians have indeed deserved, and the frontiers of Christendom being pressed inward every day; and how much it will tarnish your Holiness's memory if (which God forbid) the Church suffers eclipse or scandal in any branch of it during your time, you must perceive.

Then rouse the Christian princes who for false reasons pretend that they cannot go to help of the Holy Land because of wars they have on hand with their neighbours. The real reason that prevents them is that in making war on their smaller neighbours they find quicker profit and weaker resistance.
But how cheerfully our Lord the King and we too would go there if the King of the English would leave us in peace, He from Whom nothing is hidden well knows; and we profess and declare it to you as the Vicar of Christ and to all Christendom.

But if your Holiness puts too much faith in the tales the English tell and will not give sincere belief to all this, nor refrain from favouring them to our prejudice, then the slaughter of bodies, the perdition of souls, and all the other misfortunes that will follow, inflicted by them on us and by us on them, will, we believe, be surely laid by the Most High to your charge.

To conclude, we are and shall ever be, as far as duty calls us, ready to do your will in all things, as obedient sons to you as His Vicar; and to Him as the Supreme King and Judge we commit the maintenance of our cause, casting our cares upon Him and firmly trusting that He will inspire us with courage and bring our enemies to nought. May the Most High preserve you to his Holy Church in holiness and health and grant you length of days.

Given at the monastery of Arbroath in Scotland on the sixth day of the month of April in the year of grace thirteen hundred and twenty and the fifteenth year of the reign of our King aforesaid.
Endorsed: Letter directed to our Lord the Supreme Pontiff by the community of Scotland.

Source

[gordi]

Hello all,
 
I have read the thread of Ralph Ellis but I’am not sure if he told the thruth ?  First, the auther of the the old book said that Scota was the daugther of a Pharao named : Amenophis or Amenhotep.
 
https://books.google.ca/books?id=LwTNJUy...ta&f=false
 
After several reseachers in the field of archelogy, I found that two tombs of the Pharaoe was not already discorverd :  Thoutmosis II and Amenhotep IV and after I discovered that the tomb of Nefertiti (spouse of Akhetanen) was never discovered… 
 
To follow…
 
Now :         
 
“Perhaps one of the most astonishing claims made by Bower in his Scotichronicon is that the Scottish people were actually descendants of the ancient Egyptians…”
 
Yes and No !  Because today, we are confused between who were the real “scottish people” ? Personnaly, I’am sure that the “scottish peole” were not from Scotland but from Ireland… perhaps the reason was this Ireland was called “Hibernia and Sacred lsland ?
 
A simple reflexion and I would like to know what you think about that….
 
Surya ☼

The modern population of Scotland is a bit of a mixture, and includes genetic markers from many races,
Including Celt, Pict, Angle, Briton, Viking etc
AND also (surprisingly) Saracen and Tuareg!

The dominant Celts DID come over from Ireland and replaced the Picts, Britons etc (Both by driving them out AND by intermingling/absorbing them.) But there are still traces of over 100 different sources of DNA in the Scottish genepool.
The finding of genetic markers from the middle east and Africa suggests that there were indeed migrations from that part of the world to Scotland at some time.

Historically, humans have inhabited Scotland since at least 12,000BC, and it was always a place of conflict and war, with rival tribes and later clans always trying to gain dominion over their neighbours and rivals, so it's no surprise that the genepool is a bit of a mixture!

So, who are the "real" Scottish People?
The original "Upper Paleolithic" hunter gatherers?
The later Picts, Angles and Britons?
Viking Raiders?
The Scotti from Ireland?

Truth is, we are a mixture of them all and more.
G

[Surya]

@ Guohua
 
Thank you for all these informations !  A little bit long to read and translate in my own language to verify those informations… I know that you understand ma situation !
 
At the same time, I was smiling because I am convinced through all the language, we can find the truth as the little thumb (petit poucet)…because there is always a small white pebbles left behind… ;-)
 
@ Gordi
 
“Truth is, we are a mixture of them all and more.” 
 
For sure and if every one could understand that, we could leave in Peace all around the hearth…
 
But now, it’s not the reality, right !
 
What I want to say, is that I learned recenntly, the Irish peoples were sold by the Gouvernment of England as slaves and deported every where on the planet like they did with the Acadian peoples in Nova Scotia, Canada.  So sad ! 
 
Now, I am standing that the Irish peoples were the first peoples of the Pharaoe despite the history that we have learned. And I want to pay tribute to them for having been dispossessed at all levels…
 
And the good news is that we all have a DNA of a Pharaoe in our cells…  ☼
 
That was my reflexions…
 
Surya ☼

[guohua]

@"Surya", Yes we all can understand each other, because we can to listen and learn and be patient.

The Truth is Out There and We are searching for it.

[Surya]

@ Guohua

I know what you mean...
 
But sometimes, it’s important to write and share our reflexions and rechearch about the thruth…

Surya ☼

[Surya]

Sorry for the double post because I don't know how to delete it ? 

[Surya]

It.s worst after trying...       Please admin,  delete my errors ! Thank you !

[guohua]

Sorry for the double post because I don't know how to delete it ? 

No Problem.
To Delete an entire post, just look at the bottom right of your post next to the Edit Tab you should see a Delete Tab. In Between the Edit and Reply tab, you'll see the Delete tab, just click and then click Yes, the screen well change to a reddish pink color.
Or ask for Help! 
 

[BIAD]

...So, who are the "real" Scottish People?
The original "Upper Paleolithic" hunter gatherers?
The later Picts, Angles and Britons?
Viking Raiders?
The Scotti from Ireland?

Truth is, we are a mixture of them all and more.
G

@Surya also.

It's often said that the victors or oppressors get to write history and I'm sure that in the
case of this particular subject, it'll be found that this is the truth.

England has oppressed Scotland and Ireland for centuries and even now within the powerful
media system, it continues -but admittedly at a far lesser direct amount. I live nearer Scotland
than the English capital and I can vouch that these days, London is seen as England to many
of the counties around it.

The movement of people to find a home is only limited by geography and their ability to travel.
The use of ships is still not fully understood in the past and with the need to to stay within the
boundaries of religious and preferred historical disciplines, we are taught that our kingdoms
were basically populated with peoples who currently dominate that nation.

Irish, Scottish and Nordic folk sailed the Atlantic long before Mr. Columbus did from Spain -and
even then, he only did it because his Father-in-law gave him the maps to do so.
So where did his wife's dad get the maps from...?!

If one looks into how the Vikings fared in their incursions into Britain, it will be seen that they
rarely ventured from access to their boats. It was only after discussions with Elders of the
villages that were close to the estuaries and rivers that they had raided,  it was agreed that they
wouldn't pillage these places in return of a base of sorts.

Humans are social animals and so, the raids became fewer. Those from other lands eventually
bring their families over and focus on settling. That's how it's always been.
It's only when vast oceans are involved that this natural progress is slower... bit it still happens.

I can understand that the history we're offered is only interpreted by present-day scholars and
with that, we get the scholar's perception of how he 'wished' history to be. But, we don't truly
know who went where and what they did.

The ordeals of the Dorset peoples that traversed the northern areas of Alaska eastwards can show
the distances humans were travelling and even the legend that they encountered giants -which
are presumed to be actually Norse folk, again hints that many races were out-and-about across
the world.
....................

My personal favourite is the remains of the stone wall between myself and Gordi.
Hadrian's Wall, a Roman defensive construction to supposedly keep 'The Empire' safe from invading
Picts, is an ideal instance of what we're talking about here.

Roman armies were mainly made up of countries they conquered and that alone, guaranteed people
from other lands would be living in places not normally discerned as regular.
On the back of the this, this instance of travel is late in the world's history, so who truly knows if a
Egyptian female was in Ireland?

If we agree that if Romans can travel from Rome to the rainy climes of Britain, then so could
anyone else!

Also, we must accept that the vessels they used were invented long before this powerful empire
decided to use them, then the logical next step would be that earlier races that used boats travelled
and travelled far.

History is written by the victors and will always favour them for many reasons. My own family live
in England, but my surname can be traced to warring alongside Gordi's gang under the title of the
Gunn clan!
So am I Scottish or just a descendant of a person who lived slightly north of me?!!

I believed that South America was visited by peoples of the Mediterranean and vias-versa.
I believe that North America had white-skinned priests appearing in the deserts of Arizona and
bearded Norsemen found it stifling hot on the coasts of northern Africa.

This, even before we get to the Australian Aborigines paddling towards the home of Kangaroo!!

Good thread.

[BIAD]

...So I googled The Declaration of Arbroath.
OK, I found the English Translation of the above Document, Interesting Reading...

This a prefect example of the oppression England was delivering to Scotland.

The text displays to the Pope of that time that the Scottish are religiously caring and make
the point several times that if the English continued in their dictatorial ways, then aren't they
also brutalising people of the Catholic faith too?

The document is a request for help from a power that held great sway back then and to maybe
in a lesser amount, even today.

[BIAD]

Here's a couple of good pieces from The Scotsman, a newspaper of the area and Africasource.com

'...Here Ellis refers to Irish stories, but supplements the myth with facts.
He points to the number of gold torcs – necklaces worn by pharaohs - that have been found in the country.
He shows us tombs that were surely built with Egyptian knowledge.

He even finds us a mummified head that demonstrates that Scota's people took their method of embalming
their dead with them from Egypt halfway across the world.From Ireland it was a short hop across the water
as later Iberian "Egyptians" seeking a new homeland in Ireland were told to populate Scotland.

This colony became so successful that eventually many of the original Irish "Scots" then moved across too...'
The Scotsman:

......................................

'... In 1955, archaeologist Dr. Sean O’Riordan of Trinity College, Dublin, made an interesting
discovery during an excavation of the Mound of Hostages at Tara, site of ancient kingship of
Ireland.

Bronze Age skeletal remains were found of what has been argued to be a young prince, still
wearing a rare necklace of faience beads, made from a paste of minerals and plant extracts
that had been fired.

The skeleton was carbon dated to around 1350 BC. In 1956, J. F. Stone and L. C. Thomas
reported that the faience beads were Egyptian: “In fact, when they were compared with
Egyptian faience beads, they were found to be not only of identical manufacture but also
of matching design.

The famous boy-king Tutankhamun was entombed around the same time as the Tara skeleton
and the priceless golden collar around his mummy’s neck was inlayed with matching conical,
blue-green faience beads”
 An almost identical necklace was found in a Bronze Age burial mound at north Molton, Devon.

Lorraine Evans in her compelling book, Kingdom of the Ark, reveals archaeological connections
between Egypt and Ireland. Evans argues that the connections between the two distant lands
were plausible and there is archaeological evidence to support the theory.

In 1937 in North Ferriby, Yorkshire, the remains of an ancient boat were discovered.
While thought to be a Viking longship at first, continued excavation produced additional ships,
wrecked in a storm...'
Africaresource.com

[gordi]

...Irish, Scottish and Nordic folk sailed the Atlantic long before Mr. Columbus did from Spain -and
even then, he only did it because his Father-in-law gave him the maps to do so.
So where did his wife's dad get the maps from...?!

I believe that they are available on Amazon dotcom.

My personal favourite is the remains of the stone wall between myself and Gordi....

I didn't build it deliberately! Honest!

History is written by the victors and will always favour them for many reasons. My own family live
in England, but my surname can be traced to warring alongside Gordi's gang under the title of the
Gunn clan!
So am I Scottish or just a descendant of a person who lived slightly north of me?!!

Is that a Gunn or are you just pleased to see me?? LOL

Before I was married... If I met a young lass who was not from Scotland...
I would ask her if she had any Scottish in her?
and if she replied "no" then I would ask if she'd like some!!!!
True story that, AND it EVEN WORKED occasionally..... very occasionally..... well . .. once.