Myths of North America

[Ninurta]

I originally posted this in BIAD's "Myths of Great Britain" thread, but upon further reflection decided to make it's own thread for it, since it is not in Great Britain, but North American instead. And turned into a mega-post.

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Some of the North American Indian tribes have tales of similar creatures to the Irish and Scottish "water monsters" said to be found in local lochs and loughs, depending on which country you are in. 

The Cherokee have their stories of the Uktena, a giant horned mystical snake with a crystal set into it's forehead, and only vulnerable to an arrow shot into the 7th belly scale down from it's head, where it's heart is said to reside. The head-crystal is reported to have magical powers, and there is still one of these Uktena Crystals present among the Cherokee in the possession of an ancient Medicine Man who guards it jealously because of it's dangerous nature, so no one but he has ever seen the crystal alleged to be in his possession.

The Shawnee believe in Giant Horned Snakes that they may have gotten word of from the Cherokee as well as Giant Horse-Headed Snakes said to live in the Great Lakes, tales of which they may have adapted from the Great Lakes tribes. The Cherokee tell that the first Uktena Crystal was gained by a Shawnee man the Cherokee had captured, and who lived among them the rest of his days. He, it is said, was the first to kill an Uktena by the method described above, and although he gained the crystal and thereby gained great magic, he was a slave to the magical Uktena crystal for the rest of his life. For, you see, the Uktena Crystal requires a blood sacrifice once a year, every year, with fresh blood. It is told that blood is dripped onto the crystal, and is then immediately absorbed into the crystal, which then begins to glow with a throbbing glow, like a heart beat. This tale may be the origin of the Cherokee belief that the Shawnee were powerful magicians, or it may just be a tale to emphasize and underscore that belief.

The Shawnee, once upon a time, had 4 separate medicine bundles in the possession of 4 of the 5 septs of the tribe. One of those bundles is said to have had a strip of flesh and a bone from a Giant Horned Snake contained within it, in the company of a few other magical items.

Both of these types of serpents, the Giant Horned Snakes and the Horse-Headed Serpents, are said to live near water. Even a stump in the woods with a standing puddle in it is enough to draw them. The Cherokee Uktena is said to have lived in a bend of a river not all that far from @Mystic Wanderer. At the top of a cliff in that river bend is a cave with white streaks "dripping" from it that was claimed to be the habitation of the Thunder Bird. The Uktena and the Thunder Bird were at perpetual war with one another, the Uktena trying to eat the Thunder Bird eggs from it's nest, the Thunder Bird constantly trying to kill the Uketna in the river below.

Such are the Indian tales.

I would think that these tales may have been borrowed from the Irish and Scottish immigrants who settled this area, except that there are pre-European records of such things. Shell engravings of a Giant Horned Rattlesnake (some times with wings, some times with buffalo horns, some times with deer antlers, and in one case I know of, with a single horn on it's snout like a rhinoceros), Thunder Birds, and Bird Man Dancers have been unearthed from Mound Builder sites, confirming the ancient and North American origin of these particular tales.

The summer my Dear Old Dad turned 12 years old, he told me that he saw with his own eyes the trail of a giant snake in the dust of a road in rural West Virginia. He swore that it looked like it had been left there by a 12 inch stove pipe winding it's way up the road. He said he saw the trail several times over that summer, but never before and never since. He maintained the veracity of that tale until the day he died.

When I was in my early 20's, I used to frequent caves a lot. The area I lived in at the time, Russell County VA, was shot full of them. The terrain is what they call "karst", a sort of honeycomb of limestone caves worn out over the aeons by underground running water. Sinkholes abound there, where the roofs of caves have caved in and left dimples on the landscape. There are streams called "sinking creeks" that run along the ground and then suddenly disappear into a sinkhole in the ground. These streams feed the underground water supply in the caves. There is a cave called  "Gray's Cave" which is part of just such an underground network of caverns that runs for at least 8 miles underground, and how much farther than that I can't say. It connects in the northeast with Daugherty's Cave on Cedar Creek, and in the southwest with another cave in Glade Hollow that can be seen from Route 71, which we called "Fincastle Road".

Daugherty's Cave is interesting from an archaeological standpoint, and a historical one. Excavations have found evidence of occupation in it going back 11,000 years, and more recently during the revolutionary War era, a tale is told of two Long Hunters who entered it to escape pursuing Indians, and who emerged from the ground 5 miles away in Gray's Cave.

In my early 20's, a friend of mine who is now deceased and I went caving in Gray's Cave. There was a passageway in it that was perhaps two feet wide and a foot and a half tall that ran for around 20 feet that I crawled through. Dave was too big to fit in it, but I managed even though it was tight. I never even considered the possibility of getting stuck in it and spending all eternity stuck there. Such is the exuberance of youth!

After crawling and squeezing for about 20 feet through that channel, I emerged into a huge cavernous room. Gravel floors and rock walls, the ceiling of it was so high that my flashlight barely reached it. To my right as I emerged into the cavernous room, the gravel gave way to sand, and on the other side of the sand, at the edge of it, was a body of water that I later discovered to be an underground river. It was probably 50 or 60 feet wide. I went to the water and threw a gum wrapper out of my pocket into it, to see if it had flow, and it did - it flowed from left to right, roughly northeast to southwest, a little faster than the surface calmness suggested. About half way across it, 25 or 30 feet away from me, there was a large, oval and rounded, smooth rock. The top of the rock glistened in my flashlight beam like it was wet, but that wasn't unusual. Those underground rivers can rise and fall in a heartbeat with surface rains. Flooding is an ever present danger down there. The rock was oval, about 5 feet long and 2 or 2 1/2 feet wide, and stuck up from the water maybe 10 or 12 inches. It was bluish-gray, like any other limestone dolorite outcropping in the area. As I was watching the gum wrapper, I noticed movement, and focusing on that rock, I watched it slowly submerge into the water, with minimal rippling.

Was it a rock that finally had the sand Supporting it washed away at that precise instant, or was it some"thing" else? I don't know to this day, and never will. it's just another of those things that happens in life that we never find the answer to...

... but there are the old Indian tales to contend with.

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[Mystic Wanderer]

My friend, Spirit Scribe, who used to post here, said she was outside one day walking her cat (yes, I said cat) when she saw the shadow of a large bird crossing the yard. She looked up to see the biggest bird she had ever seen. Even though she had her phone camera on her, she was so shocked at the size of the "bird" that all she could do was stand with her mouth open and stare.

Was it a Thunder Bird?  We may never know.

[F2d5thCav]

Serpent Mound is well worth a visit if you get to southern Ohio.

Cheers

[Ninurta]

Serpent Mound is well worth a visit if you get to southern Ohio.

Cheers

I've got a friend who lives not too far from it, in Newark.

The Cherokees and Some of the other southern tribes spun off from the Mound Builders, and there are some mounds in Lee County, VA, but no effigy mounds that I know of. The Spaniards were witness to the transformation. They had a Spanish settlement for a while at Santa Helena, on what is now Parris Island, the Marine Corps base. They also had a base for about a year or year and a half at Fort San Juan, at what is now Morganton, NC. A Sergeant and a few troops from Fort San Juan accompanied a raiding party of those Indians on a raid to Saltville VA in what is now Washington County VA, just across the mountain from me, and that raid, together with the fact that there are no mounds around here indicates to me that this area was just outside the Mound Builder culture.

The Fort Ancient culture also spun off from the Mound Builders and earlier Adena culture, and it did spread into northern Kentucky and for a distance up Big Sandy, but didn't make it all the way here, either. An old woman told me years ago that tehre was an "an old Indian burial mound" in northeast Russell County between Honaker and Belfast, Somewhere in the gap between River Mountain and House and Barn Mountain, but I've never been able to find one, and kinda think it might be an old BS story.

There are painted petroglyphs on Paint Lick Mountain That show the Thunderbird, a Turtle, and I think a Giant Horned Snake among other things. Those are protected now, and there is only one time a year you can actually go up the mountain and see them. They are attributed to the Cherokees, but I have my doubts about that. The Bureau of Ethnography maps this area out as Cherokee land, but as near as I've been able to determine the maps are incorrect, and the Clinch River marked the boundary between the Cherokees and the Shawnees. Both tribes raided this area when white folks started settling here, but for the most part they still observed that boundary line. The last battle between those two tribes was in 1769, at War Gap. By then, all of the local tribes were long gone - they left around 1650, leaving nothing but abandoned villages the settlers referred to as "Old Fields". There was one on the site of wht is now the hospital in Richlands, VA, one right at the current location of Witten's Fort Museum just southwest of Tazewell VA, two or 3 in Elk Garden, VA - with some burial caves also in that area, probably belonging to those villages - and two, one on either side of Rt. 19 at the top of Moccasin Gap of Clinch Mountain. Those two guarded the approach through the gap, and the ones in Elk Garden guarded the approach from Saltville through Hayter's Gap of Clinch Mountain.

European trade goods, like glass beads and copper, have been found in some of those villages indicating trade, but probably indirect trade via other tribes closer to the whites as intermediaries. There were no, or very few, whites who ever penetrated as far as here before the local tribes left. Some folks blame the abandonment on the Iroquois "Beaver Wars", but I believe otherwise. The Iroquois were mostly in New York, a long way from here, The Spaniards were a much more close and present danger around that time - Sgt Melendez and his men from Joara/ Ft San Juan raided Saltville, and De Soto's men had a battle with nearby indiand here, too. I think the pressure from Spaniards was a lot closer than any pressure the Iroquois could bring to bear, and that is more likely to be the cause for the abandonment to my mind.

Regarding Fort San Juan, Pardo had established a string of Spanish forts from Santa Helena up through the interior of SC and NC. he set up six forts, but none of them lasted more than a year and a half before the Indians rose up and slaughtered every one of the Spaniards but one, who made it back to Santa Helena to report the uprising. That, together with the massacre of Jesuit priests at a Spanish mission on York River near what later became Jamestown caused the Spanish to lose all interest in the area.

But the Indians here had already seen the handwriting on the wall, and got out while the getting was good. By the time Englishmen got here, there was nothing west of new River but Indian Old Fields, abandoned villages.

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[F2d5thCav]

Speaking of the Indians, one thing I found intriguing about the diary of Lewis and Clark was the mention of stories told by Indians of a race of little people who lived on a particular hill (or hills).  L&C indicated they went scouting in the area but found nothing.  Taken in the context of modern UFO lore, it falls right into step.

Cheers

[GeauxHomeLittleD]

Mound building tribes are interesting. In the area I am from originally the native tribes also built mounds but they were built mostly from oystershell, an abundant material in the Gulf Coast and adjoining areas. Some of the mounds are extremely long. They weren't discovered until several years ago after a drought brought river and bayou levels down to reveal previously covered areas. Arrowheads and pottery fragments are found in huge quantities in all of the areas around water in the region.

[Ninurta]

Mound building tribes are interesting. In the area I am from originally the native tribes also built mounds but they were built mostly from oystershell, an abundant material in the Gulf Coast and adjoining areas. Some of the mounds are extremely long. They weren't discovered until several years ago after a drought brought river and bayou levels down to reveal previously covered areas. Arrowheads and pottery fragments are found in huge quantities in all of the areas around water in the region.

Those were likely some of the same tribes that DeSoto fought on his path of carnage across the southeast US around 1540. He was witnessing - and fighting - the end of the Mound Builder culture. 

20 years later, Juan Pardo saw the final death throes of it in NC, east TN, and Southwestern VA. Both DeSoto and some of Pardo's men engaged some of the Indians around here in combat, which I believe was a catalyst in causing them to evacuate from this area when they discovered through the grape vine that yet more white men had landed and started a colony at Jamestown. VA. 

6 or 7 years after Pardo's men were all wiped out except one, in NC, the Spanish sent a Jesuit Mission to colonize York River, across the peninsula from Jamestown (this was about 30 years before Jamestown was founded by the English), but it was wiped out as well by the local Indians, all but one boy. As retaliation for that massacre, Pedro Menendez Aviles sailed up York River, captured several of the Indians there, and hung them from the yardarms as he sailed away. That was the end of the Spanish attempts to colonize Virginia, opening the door for the English settlement 30 years later.

The Mound Builder cultures along the Mississippi River, Ohio River, Tennessee and Cumberland rivers, and some of their tributaries, transformed into the Cherokee, Yuchi, Muskogee, Choctaw, Chicasaw, and several other tribes. It was the Mound Builders who first introduced cultivation of corn into North America, and it's cultivation spread along their trade routes. 

Before that, before corn, the primary grain crop in North America was goosefoot seeds - what is now called "Quinoa" after it's South American variety. The seeds have been found in caves and rock shelters in Eastern KY, and in  the excavations of Daugherty's Cave, about 3 miles or so from where I was raised. It was still being raised as a legacy crop by the Indians in VA and NC when the first whites settled there. It was eaten as greens and the seeds boiled as porridge, like quinoa. Another property of that plant is that it leeches salt up from the soil, Because of that, the Indians on the east coast, and probably elsewhere, used to gather it, dry it, and burn it, leaving salt behind as one of the mineral components of the ash, which ashes they used to season food.

Goosefoot is now considered a weed, a nuisance plant that grows along roadsides and is no longer used for anything by most folks. Scientists call it Chenopodium, but us hillbillies call it goosefoot or lamb's quarters. Yeah, you can eat it. it's in the spinach family, but more nutritious.

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[BIAD]

Those were likely some of the same tribes that DeSoto fought on his path of carnage across the southeast US around 1540. He was witnessing - and fighting - the end of the Mound Builder culture. 

20 years later, Juan Pardo saw the final death throes of it in NC, east TN, and Southwestern VA. Both DeSoto and some of Pardo's men engaged some of the Indians around here in combat, which I believe was a catalyst in causing them to evacuate from this area when they discovered through the grape vine that yet more white men had landed and started a colony at Jamestown. VA. 

6 or 7 years after Pardo's men were all wiped out except one, in NC, the Spanish sent a Jesuit Mission to colonize York River, across the peninsula from Jamestown (this was about 30 years before Jamestown was founded by the English), but it was wiped out as well by the local Indians, all but one boy. As retaliation for that massacre, Pedro Menendez Aviles sailed up York River, captured several of the Indians there, and hung them from the yardarms as he sailed away. That was the end of the Spanish attempts to colonize Virginia, opening the door for the English settlement 30 years later.

The Mound Builder cultures along the Mississippi River, Ohio River, Tennessee and Cumberland rivers, and some of their tributaries, transformed into the Cherokee, Yuchi, Muskogee, Choctaw, Chicasaw, and several other tribes. It was the Mound Builders who first introduced cultivation of corn into North America, and it's cultivation spread along their trade routes. 

Before that, before corn, the primary grain crop in North America was goosefoot seeds - what is now called "Quinoa" after it's South American variety. The seeds have been found in caves and rock shelters in Eastern KY, and in  the excavations of Daugherty's Cave, about 3 miles or so from where I was raised. It was still being raised as a legacy crop by the Indians in VA and NC when the first whites settled there. It was eaten as greens and the seeds boiled as porridge, like quinoa. Another property of that plant is that it leeches salt up from the soil, Because of that, the Indians on the east coast, and probably elsewhere, used to gather it, dry it, and burn it, leaving salt behind as one of the mineral components of the ash, which ashes they used to season food.

Goosefoot is now considered a weed, a nuisance plant that grows along roadsides and is no longer used for anything by most folks. Scientists call it Chenopodium, but us hillbillies call it goosefoot or lamb's quarters. Yeah, you can eat it. it's in the spinach family, but more nutritious.

Excellent information.

In another post you mentioned an 'ivy-type' plant that has taken over on your property. Is that indigenous to North America?
(My Missus has just told me that Quinoa -as a add-in for rice, is expensive here in the UK!)

[Ninurta]

Excellent information.

In another post you mentioned an 'ivy-type' plant that has taken over on your property. Is that indigenous to North America?
(My Missus has just told me that Quinoa -as a add-in for rice, is expensive here in the UK!)

No, I believe it is English Ivy. It even grew THROUGH the walls of the house, tendrils finding cracks to follow until it was indoors. We had a lovely patch of it in the bathroom and another in the laundry room. In the laundry room, it came in through a window like any self-respecting burglar, but that patch in the bathroom - that one was growing out from under the edge of the ceiling molding! I don't know who planted it there, or what they were thinking when they did. There isn't any of it at this house, and I aim to keep it that way.

There is also another vine type of plant growing here that has taken over the highways called "kudzu". That one is from, I believe, Japan. They originally planted it for erosion control along road banks because it is fast growing as a ground cover, but it went native and is now found everywhere, The only thing keeping it from growing across the roadways and taking over the entire planet is that the car tires keep it pruned back and sort of in check. But kudzu is also edible, so it isn't a total wash... it's just that most folks here don't know it's edible. Leaves more for me, I reckon!

Most of the native vines here are wild grape vines, scuppernongs, something called "Virginia creeper", and what are called "greenbriers" colloquially known as "shin-rippers" because, small diameter as the stems are, they are tough and thorny, and have no compunction against opening a shin whenever the opportunity presents. If you don't mind the thorns (or shave those little bastards off), they make good ties to tie structural elements of a hut together with before you cover it with brush and bark slabs.

Quinoa is pretty expensive here, too per pound, but it swells up pretty good, like rice does, so it can be pretty filling. Grace used to fix it like a porridge, adding onions and bacon grease or something to it to make it palatable, and it isn't too bad like that. The quinoa in the grocery stores is imported here, from the Andes I believe. I don't have the wherewithal to determine if the wild sort of goosefoot growing around here is actually from the domesticated plants of long ago or not. The only difference is in the thickness of the seed casing, which is measured in micro-meters. I don't have a ruler graduated that fine, and the seeds are too tiny for me to handle well to peel them and measure them with my micrometer, so I just have to make assumptions that wild is as good as domesticated in a pinch.

They also imported what I believe are called "Empress Trees" from China to repopulate strip mines, because they grow fast, but I've not yet found a good use for those. This place was already jungle-y enough before the imported plants (it was once observed that a squirrel could travel all the way from the ocean at the east coast to the Mississippi River through the trees without ever touching the ground), and now it's just a riot of greenery with the additions. It is one of the most biodiverse areas of the planet, and in late spring or early summer mornings, with the mists rising through the brush, you'd think you were somewhere on the Amazon to look at it.

When we were moving back here from Kansas City, I tried to prepare Grace by telling her to get ready for some jungle, but I don't think she believed me. Driving through eastern Kentucky at sunrise in late July, when the mists were rising through the trees and there was no ground to be seen anywhere but the roadway, her response was "Oh. My. God."

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[BIAD]

No, I believe it is English Ivy. It even grew THROUGH the walls of the house, tendrils finding cracks to follow
until it was indoors...'

Oh I know, I fight it here every Summer! I've trained it to travel along a garage wall, onto a seven-foot
cane fence and enjoy the privacy the ivy brings. But... the bastard-stuff knows nothing of friendship
and is eternally trying to get under fascia boards and enter my garage!
If there was only some bug that loved the ivy...!

Most of the native vines here are wild grape vines, scuppernongs, something called "Virginia creeper"...'

I have a seed-packet of Virginia Creeper and have been tempted to sow them. However, I've seen
the way it takes over a place. Maybe I should get it compete with the 'English' ivy?!!!

[Ninurta]

Most of the native vines here are wild grape vines, scuppernongs, something called "Virginia creeper"...'

I have a seed-packet of Virginia Creeper and have been tempted to sow them. However, I've seen
the way it takes over a place. Maybe I should get it compete with the 'English' ivy?!!!

Yeah! Cage match! A fight to the death between the two!

At my last house, the creeper vines stayed in the woods, as I think they must prefer shade, and the English Ivy took over the more sunny areas, so there was not much competition between the two.

Virginia creeper is more sparsely foliated, and so less picturesque. It makes up for it by climbing trees, fences, and anything else that stands still long enough for it to take over. I've been looking for pictures of here to post, to illustrate the jungle vibe, but so far have not found any. I think Grace got some pictures of a Virginia Creeper wallowing all over a tree in the woods here.

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[BIAD]

...At my last house, the creeper vines stayed in the woods, as I think they must prefer shade,
and the English Ivy took over the more sunny areas, so there was not much competition
between the two...

That stuff you showed on your 'mountain' pics seems to be able to put both English Ivy and
Virginia Creeper to shame! I can't remember what you called it, but it was all over the bushes
and trees.

[Ninurta]

...At my last house, the creeper vines stayed in the woods, as I think they must prefer shade,
and the English Ivy took over the more sunny areas, so there was not much competition
between the two...

That stuff you showed on your 'mountain' pics seems to be able to put both English Ivy and
Virginia Creeper to shame! I can't remember what you called it, but it was all over the bushes
and trees.

That would be the kudzu. It had taken over the place across the road from me.

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[Ninurta]

A couple of videos.

The first is close to my heart, as it deals with Appalachian Folklore. @"Guohua" may also find it interesting, as it deals with giants:



Note that I believe there is a lot of bullshit in this video, which may have grains of fact hidden within it. For example, the "Red Bird Rock" in Kentucky discussed within it is claimed to have been carved by Cherokees. There is a problem with that. No Cherokees lived north of the Cumberland River or west of the Clinch River until long after white men had settled the area, and some Cherokees bought farms among the whites to try to blend in. If the carvings are older than about 200 years or so, there is no way the Cherokees carved it. Now the Cherokee CLAIMED that area, but were never able to settle in it in native days, because the natives that already lived there had a nasty habit of killing off interlopers  on sight.

The Judaculla Rock in North Carolina also was not likely to have been carved by Cherokees. The rock is supposed to have been carved some time prior to the 13th century (1200s AD). If it was carved earlier than that date, it could not have been carved by Cherokees, because the Cherokee tribe did not exist until between 400 and 500 years ago, between 1500 AD and 1600 AD. it was created as a tribe when the Mound Builder culture disintegrated, from a branch of that culture that was isolated from it in the collapse.

There are petroglyphs not far from here, painted on a rock on top of a mountain - Paint Lick Mountain. Those are also attributed to the Cherokee, and that is possible. The mountain, and the rock on top of it, are situated at the territorial line between the Cherokee and the Shawnee, just on the Cherokee side of it. The area was usually under dispute, with constant fighting for possession between the Cherokee and the Shawnee. The last battle between the two for the area occurred in 1769 or thereabouts, at War Gap of War Ridge. 

During the Indian Wars, the Cherokee did raid into Lee and Scott counties south of here, closer to Tennessee, but did not venture this far north because they would have had to fight the whites AND the Shawnee. The Indians that raided this area were Shawnee and their allies, coming from Ohio via the Sandy River War Passes.

The Cherokee get blamed for all Indian activity around here, because they are the more famous tribe, and they did not all get dislodged and moved across the Mississippi during Indian Removal. Everyone who has any Indian blood claims it comes from "a Cherokee Princess" because of that, but most are not Cherokee, and the Cherokee did not have royalty - they had a tribal government, like most all the other tribes.

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The second is a companion video to the one I just posted in BIAD's thread concerning cryptids and legends of great Britain - but this installment deals with North America. I presnt to you "Mythical Creatures of North America":



Bonus video - another one on American Giants:



"Dowsing" or "water witching" as shown in this video may be a real thing. I've used it successfully, and quite a few others have as well. With that said, I've never seen anyone do it with the rods pointing downward and not level as the guy in the video is doing. I dunno how he makes it work.

Also, in reference to giants, there were alleged to have been several skeletons found over several years along the upper Ohio River, in eastern Ohio, Western Pennsylvania, and the western panhandle of West Virginia. These skeletons are said to have been between 8 and 10 feet tall, and all are said to have had a double row of teeth. 

During Dunmore's War in 1774. an orderly book that recorded the march from Fort Union on Greenbrier River to Point Pleasant at the confluence of the Kanawha and Ohio rivers mentioned that scouts found a bare foot print along the trail that was 14 1/2 inches long, a remarkable size which is why it got recorded. Bigfoot? Giant? Is there really a difference between the two?
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[PuppupSuzieQ]

Serpent Mound is well worth a visit if you get to southern Ohio.

Cheers

I live about an hour away from Serpent Mound.  I love it there.  I also thought I saw a mention of giants in this thread too.


https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2020/11/m...d-of-ohio/

Lying out in rural Adams County, Ohio, in the United States, upon a plateau overlooking Brush Creek, is a curious mound of earth jutting out of the land, winding about in the unmistakable image of a snake for a full 1348 feet and averaging 3.9 to 4.9 feet in height, and it comes complete with an open-mouthed head and coiled tail, earning it its nickname “The Serpent Mound.” It is what is called an “effigy mound,” a type of earthen mound created in the shape of an animal, and it is the largest known such mound in the world, made all the more mysterious in that it curiously lies along the impact crater of some ancient meteor strike. First excavated in the late 1800s, we know no more about it now than we did then, its origins and purpose unclear, and so the Serpent Mound has managed to attract many mysterious stories to it, one of these being all of the giant skeletons that have apparently been found there.

https://www.roadsideamerica.com/tip/20640

Giants - Seville Historical Society Museum


This museum holds not only the history of Seville, Ohio but also a "GIANT" collection of historical information on Captain and Mrs. Martin Van Buren Bates, giants of their time!

[Michigan Swamp Buck]

I don't do video online, steals too much data.

A short list of my favorite Native American Mythological Creatures.

Giant beings (non human) like wendigos
Sasquash or bigfoot, AKA wildmen
Giant Native Americans relating to Adena mound builders
Little people and puckwudgies
Any lake monsters, esp. sea serpent variety
Thunderbirds
Piasa or Underwater Panther (Matchi Manitou)
Shape shifters like the loup garou
Gitche Manitou (great spirit) and other spirits

Did I miss any?

[Ninurta]

I always thoought Big Stone Gap, VA was in either Lee or Scott county, but according to this article, it's in Wise County. Wise County is home to a college, now a part of UVA, that I went to in summers when I was in high school, and where I learned the fine art of programming.

I also never knew that it was once called "Three Forks". The only "Three Forks" I know of is in Buchanan County, and is a dangerous place for a male to drive through. From what I hear, the entire population of the town is prostitutes, and they will swarm your car trying to drum up business if you are a male just trying to drive through. I dunno, I've never been there. I try to avoid getting swarmed by anyone when at all possible.

Anyhow, although I have been to Big Stone Gap, and have had friends that were raised there, I have never heard the following tale:

The vampire of Big Stone Gap

In the heart of Appalachia, lies a small community of Big Stone Gap.  Over the years, Big Stone Gap has gone through several name changes.  Close to the Tennessee and Kentucky border, the community used to be known as Three Forks, then Mineral City and finally was officially named Big Stone Gap in 1888.  In the 1890s, the area was the center of iron and coal development and was touted as the new “Pittsburgh of the South” with its railroads, economic boom of businesses and the wilderness landscape.  During the coal boom, dignitaries, northern businessmen, and Europeans flocked to the area with hopes of getting wealthy from the rich minerals in the area.

Before the 1897 publication of Bram Stoker’s Dracula, vampires permeated Eastern European folklore.  With tales of vampires terrorizing small villages in the dark of night, they were blamed for anything locals did not understand or could not explain.  Vampiric beings have been recorded in literature all over the world but pop culture vampires of today, are recognized through eastern European folkloric traditions.  People could become vampires after death because of their misdeeds while they were alive.  Drunks, thieves, accused witches, murderers or anyone excommunicated from the church could become a vampire after death.

Without the modern understanding of medicine, most diseases and plagues would be blamed on vampires.  Vampires in folklore represented pale-faced walking corpses that would leave their grave at night in order to drink blood from livestock or people.  This rational feasted on the fears of villagers.  The ancient lore of driving a stake through the heart was the accepted method of killing a vampire.  There are certain parts of Virginia, however, where this method also pertains to those early settlers who committed suicide.

Dating back to the 1600s, suicide victims and their bodies were buried at a nearby crossroads and a stake was driven through their heart.

It wasn’t until a medical doctor, John Polidori, wrote a short horror story “The Vampyre” published in 1819 that presented the vampire as a gentleman camouflaged within society as a regular man. In the Big Stone Gap region, the late nineteenth century provided us with mysterious deaths of the town drunk and farm animals being drained of their blood.  The bizarre tale begins with a local farmer who found two of his prize cattle dead in his backfield.  Not an unusual occurrence considering the wildlife that roamed the area.  But there is a twist to this gruesome story.  The farmer not only found his cattle dead but the worst part was he found them dismembered and drained of their blood!  The attacker only left the heads and hindquarters of the slaughtered cows.

The mystery continued when three more farmers tragically lost their cows under the same circumstances.  A few days later, a number of well known distinguished men had a meeting at the local tavern to discuss the strange occurrence.  They concluded that the culprit behind the cattle killings must be one of the new Europeans that arrived to work at the coal mine.  One particular suspect that was under suspicion was a very strange man who lived on the other side of the ridge in a remote cabin.  Mr. Rupp had moved to the area recently and it was only after he arrived in the area that the strange cattle killings began.

Soon after the cattle incident, two local boys came forward who went to Mr. Rupp’s cabin.  Peaking through the window, they saw the recluse hermit eating a large piece of raw meat by the fireplace.  The citizens of the town demanded that the Sherriff arrest Mr. Rupp.  But without evidence, the Sherriff’s hands were tied and refused to arrest him.

A few weeks later, the town drunk went missing.  Soon his dead body was found in the woods a quarter-mile from Mr. Rupp’s cabin.  The town drunk was found with his arm and leg missing and his body also had been completely been drained of blood.  A local salesman who traveled around the hills of southwestern Virginia and Kentucky selling odds and ends became the next victim.

The rest of the harrowing tale may be found at the link listed above.

Sleep tight!

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[BIAD]

Since the Covid-scare is now dead-in-the-water and the mainstream media are helping to shroud US President Biden's
failings by 'suggesting' Russia is going to start a World War, some of the less-influencial outlets are panning around for
anything to entertain their dwindling readership.

Personally, I think they should stick to this kind of stuff. Myth is one thing, but outright BS certainly isn't needed.
If one of these legendary creatures rings a bell, please enlighten us with your version of the tale and maybe add more
than these scant pieces!

WE'RE NOT ALONE From a giant octopus to an eel pig – here’s America’s weirdest lake monster myths

'The Loch Ness Monster isn't the only mythical lake creature that has left people terrified over the decades.
There's been multiple lake monster sightings across the US and these range from claims of a giant octopus
to a half eel half pig creature.

Atlas Obscura created a map of all the 'lake monsters' in America. Here's four of the creepiest sounding creatures
that might make you think twice about going for a swim.


(Left-to-Right) Lake Worth Monster rumors caused hysteria in the 1960s.
The monster of Alkali Lake was said to have a rhino-like horn.

Giant Octopus of Lake Thunderbird
Even though an octopus technically wouldn't be able to survive in a freshwater lake, there's still a rumor that there's
one in Oklahoma.

A giant octopus myth surrounds Lake Thunderbird.
Myths and rumors suggest the octopus is as large as a horse with long tentacles that drag swimmers to their deaths.

Lake Worth Monster
You could avoid a giant octopus if you stayed out the water but you'd have to take on Texas's Lake Worth Monster on land.
The monster of Lake Worth caused mass hysteria back in 1969. According to Texan folklore, it's a legendary creature that
inhabits Lake Worth at the Fort Worth Nature Center and Refuge.

It's said to be part man, part goat and lives on land and in the water. In the late 1960s, newspapers reported on sighting of
the monster. It allegedly jumped out of a tree onto a man's car and left a trail of dead sheep with snapped necks around the
lake. Some people blamed high school students in a costume but no culprit was ever caught.


(Left-to-Right) Atlas Obscura think Kentucky's eel-pig monster could look like this.
A giant octopus myth surrounds Lake Thunderbird in Oklahoma.

Eel Pig of Herrington Lake
Kentucky has its own lake monster myth. Folklore states there's an eel-like pig creature with a long curly tail that lives in
Herrington Lake. One theory for the tale is that sightings were actually of a giant alligator.

Alkali Lake Monster
The monster of Alkali Lake in Nebraska had an eye witness report in 1923. The shocked witness said it looked like an
alligator with a single rhino-like horn. It was also said to roar from the water and apparently smelled terrible.
Sightings peaked in the 1920s and no reasonable explanation for the monster sightings was agreed upon...'

The Sun:

[Ninurta]

I'm not familiar with any of the above lake monsters, although I have heard of the lake Worth monster.

I know that off and on, an alleged lake monster has been reported in Lake Erie, as well as one in Lake Champlain. The lake Erie lake monster, as well as possibly some of the others, has reports going all the way back to the Native Americans and their reports of Giant Horned Serpents.

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Originally, the second half of this post was a re-hash of an encounter in gray's Cave, Russell County VA, but then I realized I had already told that tale above, so I zapped it. Don't feel a need to chew my tobacco twice.

To the Gray's Cave tale I told above, I will only add this:


I've no idea what the shape was, as I said. Could have been some sort of "lake monster", or it could have just as easily been a giant catfish or eel or something similar. I didn't see any scales on it or anything like that, but catfish don't have scales. Some, especially in years of yore, were a lot bigger than they get now, with reports of catfish in the Ohio River saying they were up to about 300 pounds, which would be a pretty big catfish. So it could have been one of those, a relict from a bygone era protected by it's underground environment.

There are still giant catfish in the Mekong River that I hear get up to about 600 pounds, and those are known to still exist.

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So, instead of re-telling the ballad of Gray's cave, I will instead post this video about the Boggy Creek or Fouke Monster in Arkansas:





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[727Sky]