@freija 
I have never cared for how humans behave. Your childhood is a true example of how groups and humans work. You are different, something or some one who is different is seen as a danger to the standing system, and humans fear that, fear leads to hate and hate leads to action been taken. 
For groups to work in the wild, there must always be someone to blame, so we have fear, who will be to blame next,will it be me, who will the group turn on next.
People hate because they fear, they hate the thing they see as causing the fear so they attack it. That person does as they feel is right, they are strong and know who they are, or at least want to find who they are, they are showing us how weak we are so we hate them and want to inflect pain on them.
I have got into a shit load of trouble in my life time because I dont follow the hate rules.
You dont have my pity for what happened to you, but you do have my massive respect, you are strong, and you survive. You are a massive " F you" to all who hurt you. You live as you. Well done old girl 

Thank you so much for your really detailed answer. It not only helped me understand what Trans children have to go through, but the psychology behind some of it as well. I'm really sorry you had to go through so much as a child. I would imagine things are still difficult and triggering as I'm constantly hearing callous remarks about transgender people in mixed company. There seems to be quite a bit of toxic speech about them. I'm not sure people really realize some of the horrid things they say, but I must admit I see quite a bit of trans people being made the butt of jokes and frankly, it makes me cringe. I assume since no one knows your past that you are witness to this as well? Anyways, thank you so much for taking time to expoain these things to us. It's very kind of you.

(08-01-2020, 10:48 AM)Wallfire Wrote: You dont have my pity for what happened to you, but you do have my massive respect, you are strong, and you survive. You are a massive " F you" to all who hurt you. You live as you. Well done old girl  

Thank you @Wallfire for your comments. Regarding what you’ve said, this graphic comes to mind. People fear what they don't understand or are ignorant (un-informed) about and that turns to hate that's why I think information about this is the only way to counter.



I didn't post all this stuff to get attention or be special. I'm pretty much a normal, average person and these are things I went through a loooong time ago but the reason I did post the personal things I did so that people may have a tiny bit more understanding about this stuff.

’Antisthenes’ Wrote:Thank you so much for your really detailed answer. It not only helped me understand what Trans children have to go through, but the psychology behind some of it as well. I'm really sorry you had to go through so much as a child.

Thank you @Antisthenes for your comments as well and for prompting me to write a short novel about my childhood but I don’t need and wasn’t looking for sympathy but I appreciate your intent.

’Antisthenes’ Wrote:I would imagine things are still difficult and triggering as I'm constantly hearing callous remarks about transgender people in mixed company. There seems to be quite a bit of toxic speech about them. I'm not sure people really realize some of the horrid things they say, but I must admit I see quite a bit of trans people being made the butt of jokes and frankly, it makes me cringe. I assume since no one knows your past that you are witness to this as well

Yeah, this can be problematic. The bar where I hangout, or least did before COVID, is full of ignorant people saying really stupid shit and sometimes I have to just tune it out.

I’m not about to “out” myself to correct them for my own safety and to not be the butt of their jokes but sometimes this makes me feel complicit in their transphobia and at times it is a moral dilemma I wrestle with internally. I try to avoid the people I know are trans/homophobic and racist but it isn’t always possible. People know I usually get up and walk away when this talk is going on but I’ve also been known to get into it with people and have enough times that most who know me don’t act this way when I’m around.

So any questions or comments about anything from anyone else? Now’s your chance to let it out because I don’t usually bring this topic up unless someone else does first.

(08-02-2020, 05:09 AM)Freija Wrote: So any questions or comments about anything from anyone else? Now’s your chance to let it out because I don’t usually bring this topic up unless someone else does first.

Just a big Thank You! and a wee hug!
That was very interesting and informative.

Gx

(08-02-2020, 05:09 AM)Freija Wrote: So any questions or comments about anything from anyone else? Now’s your chance to let it out because I don’t usually bring this topic up unless someone else does first.

Appreciate you writing all that! people can be cruel, not just with gender, but everything in life. Everyone preaches individualism and being yourself, then fucking crucifies you for doing exactly that, when you don't fit into there world view or differ in any way.

Here's to not giving a fuck and just living your life!

What? No comments about chromosomes, mental disorders, mutilation, social contagion, the liberal agenda, too young to know, endocrine disruptors in the water and gay frogs, long term consequences and regret, dangerous hormone treatments, the school system, child abuse, and no one identifying as an attack helicopter or Spider-Man? This place really is different from ”that other place” and I’m truly surprised. Nice! (and thank you rogues!)

Having heard these things for several years over there, I was honestly expecting and prepared for more of the same here considering the conservative slant of this board but if it matters, I myself am highly critical of the “transgender movement”, activism and rhetoric feeling it detrimental to those genuinely transsexual and especially so for those truly and innately trans as children like I was.

Not that I would want to be or ever have been but I am not welcome in the trans “community” because I believe 90% of their crap is nonsense plus I am one of the oldest transgender children alive that grew up in a supportive and understanding environment so there is a good deal of resentment about that and I’m seen as anomaly even among my own kind.

Other than observing from a distance and studying the science of all this on my own, save for a few exceptions, I have remained isolated from those with similar shared experiences which suits me just fine. Those that are most like me that I can relate to are all young as the phenomenon of trans kids wasn’t really recognized until 20 or 25 years ago and as I grew up and indeed for most of my entire life, I felt like some rare unicorn and there was no one like me in the whole world with similar experiences. For many many years I mostly blocked even being of transsexual history out of my awareness as it had nothing to do with my day-to-day life.

This changed about five years ago when I was 60. For the first time in my life I came across someone that was like me and it was quite an epiphany although she was barely 20 years old at the time. I met her at ATS of all places and we quickly bonded despite a forty year difference in our ages and she remains one of my dearest friends to this day.

Until she encouraged me to, I had never spoken anywhere about my past but have since learned the value of doing so in order to help others to learn about the condition but this is something I’ve only done online because in the real world, this isn’t something I want known about me. People jump to conclusions that are nearly always wrong and for some, it can change their perception entirely even if you’ve never been or lived as a man and it’s frustrating that people might think I know anything about that. It is also a bit dangerous especially among the rednecks, cowboys and retards (oops!) I hang out with as there are still many that simply hate people like me for existing. I do not know any transgender or transsexual people in the real world and have no desire to do so.

I’ll be the first to admit there is so much wrong surrounding all this and that people have strong, mostly uninformed opinions about it all which unfortunately have been politicized by the left AND the right turning what once was purely a medical condition into a political football and ammunition in the culture wars. It makes me sad. People like me, the “normal” ones aren’t out to change the world and rules of society to accommodate and accept us. In fact, those rules of society and culture and even perhaps stereotypes to a degree are the things with which we want to abide in order to fit in and disappear as normal every day men and women. Those that don’t want to or can’t and the 256 gender types and “non-binaries” and those clamoring for attention are the ones most often heard about that are unrepresentative of folks like me and I tend to get a little bit angry about that.

Thanks to everyone that has taken the time to read or comment. It is really appreciated. Being of trans experience and having a “sex-changed” biologically male body does have its share of things to deal with and I’m open to questions about that or how I have navigated disclosing my past with those I have had deeper relationships with. For those that are interested in knowing more, please don’t be afraid to ask. How else will people who want to, get to learn about this stuff if it isn’t talked about and here’s your chance to hear things straight from the horse’s mouth.

--Elisabeth

PS
I don’t “identify” as a horse. Haha!

@"Freija"  or Dear Elisabeth

Quote:Having heard these things for several years over there, I was honestly expecting and prepared for more of the same here considering the conservative slant of this board but if it matters, I myself am highly critical of the “transgender movement”, activism and rhetoric feeling it detrimental to those genuinely transsexual and especially so for those truly and innately trans as children like I was.

Yes. many, many of the members here are Conservative or Right Leaning in their thinking, BUT and I Say But because, most here are mature level thinking Adults with LGBT family members or know people that have had a bad time in their life because of abuse.

One of My husbands two Niece's is a Lesbian who was pressure by her pears to date and be normal, she became pregnant and had her baby 22 years ago and many of her Girlfriends/Lovers would denim and leave her for keeping her child from a man she didn't marry.
It is weird but her daughter my husband Great Niece Happy Young Adult.

I think maybe the Very Strict Religious Right & Left are the Hypocrites most of the time with sexual issues.
I can tell you this, My husband's mother disowned the above mentioned niece because she was taught that that was a Sin in the Bible, she was of the Pentecostal religion and my husband's father will still married to his mother, Love that Niece more than anything and he was also part of the Pentecostal religion, My husband left the Church at a young age.

I'm sure there are questions to be asked, So Thank You for wanting to share.
I'll say it again, You Have My Utmost respect.
Love

(08-04-2020, 03:24 AM)Freija Wrote: What? No comments about chromosomes, mental disorders, mutilation, social contagion, the liberal agenda, too young to know, endocrine disruptors in the water and gay frogs, long term consequences and regret, dangerous hormone treatments, the school system, child abuse, and no one identifying as an attack helicopter or Spider-Man? This place really is different from ”that other place” and I’m truly surprised. Nice! (and thank you rogues!)

Ummm... I self-identify as a large black Dire Wolf, and am therefore the last living representative of my species on your planet. It's a very lonely existence. Will that work?

In all honesty, this "self identification" trap is some bullshit. You either ARE something, or you ain't, and "Self identification" means nothing. It's just an invented mess that has recently come on to the scene just to confuse folks and make them look small when they don't get right with the program. For example, you are a woman. You don't "self-identify" as a woman, you just ARE one. I'm a simple man, with a simple mind, and that is how I keep everything straight in my own world.

A phrase that confuses me to no end is "trans-woman" or "trans-man". I don't know how to unpack those phrases, is that person a man who became a woman, or a woman who became a man, or vice-versa? What bearing does "trans" have on life in the real world? What does what one WAS matter in what one now IS? Why can we not simplify and see what is, and ignore what was? I'd be a great deal happier if folks would just come out and say what they ARE, and leave out the confusing qualifier of "trans" out of the matter altogether. In general, among acquaintances, I don't need to know what was in order to process what is unless there is intimacy on the horizon and I might encounter unexpected plumbing. Now THAT might start a lively conversation!

Quote:Having heard these things for several years over there, I was honestly expecting and prepared for more of the same here considering the conservative slant of this board but if it matters, I myself am highly critical of the “transgender movement”, activism and rhetoric feeling it detrimental to those genuinely transsexual and especially so for those truly and innately trans as children like I was.

Well, I AM a Conservative, but an old-school Conservative, not one of these Neocons who try to pass off their Marxist BS as "Conservative", and who have come to represent conservatism in the last few years to the point that younger folks think they somehow ARE conservative when they are not. That may not make much sense to many folks, so it may be easier to say I'm a Conservative as conservatives were 200 years ago. We don't care who you are, or what we can get from you or make you do. We are content to live our lives, and for you to live yours, as each of us see fit to do.

That's why I don't understand the members of the LGBTQXYZ community who feel a need to throw it in your face - the "this is what I am, and you WILL like it!" sort of thing. I don't care what they are, and I don't have to like anything. Is it not enough that I accept it, and get on with my own life and leave them to get on with theirs? WHY must I LIKE it? After all, if I'm not involved in it, it ain't none of my business. It makes no sense to my simple mind.

Quote:Until she encouraged me to, I had never spoken anywhere about my past but have since learned the value of doing so in order to help others to learn about the condition but this is something I’ve only done online because in the real world, this isn’t something I want known about me. People jump to conclusions that are nearly always wrong and for some, it can change their perception entirely even if you’ve never been or lived as a man and it’s frustrating that people might think I know anything about that. It is also a bit dangerous especially among the rednecks, cowboys and retards (oops!) I hang out with as there are still many that simply hate people like me for existing. 

I'm a redneck, of the hillbilly sort, and don't hate anyone for simply existing. We've all got that right, the right to exist unmolested. Now, I may get pretty frustrated with folks when their political ideology overrides and attempts to force conquest of my own, but that's a horse of a different color from mere existence. Simple existence is not a problem - it's when folks try to force me into their own mold that problems develop, as then they are questioning MY existence. If I ain't questioning theirs, they need to be leaving mine alone, too.

Quote:I’ll be the first to admit there is so much wrong surrounding all this and that people have strong, mostly uninformed opinions about it all which unfortunately have been politicized by the left AND the right turning what once was purely a medical condition into a political football and ammunition in the culture wars. It makes me sad. People like me, the “normal” ones aren’t out to change the world and rules of society to accommodate and accept us. In fact, those rules of society and culture and even perhaps stereotypes to a degree are the things with which we want to abide in order to fit in and disappear as normal every day men and women. Those that don’t want to or can’t and the 256 gender types and “non-binaries” and those clamoring for attention are the ones most often heard about that are unrepresentative of folks like me and I tend to get a little bit angry about that.

I can understand that. Those Heinz-57 types also threaten YOUR existence, trying to force folks like you out into the open where they become vulnerable to the whims of lesser folk, and that ain't cool. Live and let live, let folks just be folks. There is no reason to force an agenda down someone else's throat, unless the forcer is somehow insecure in their own skin and needs validation from outside themselves. To be brutally honest, they won't find that here - the moment they try to force an agenda on me is the instant they won't get acceptance of their agenda. It's theirs, not mine. I've got my own troubles to deal with, ain't got time for theirs.

Quote:Being of trans experience and having a “sex-changed” biologically male body does have its share of things to deal with and I’m open to questions about that or how I have navigated disclosing my past with those I have had deeper relationships with. For those that are interested in knowing more, please don’t be afraid to ask. How else will people who want to, get to learn about this stuff if it isn’t talked about and here’s your chance to hear things straight from the horse’s mouth.

--Elisabeth

PS
I don’t “identify” as a horse. Haha!  

Well, since you brought it up, I do have to wonder about the interpersonal relationships aspect of life. I just cannot fathom how that conversation goes, how one navigates that minefield, as I've never had to deal with it. I wouldn't even begin to know how to. I DID run into a fella once whose girlfriend would only engage in oral sex, on him, refused it on herself, and he never understood why until he forced the issue and found she had a dangler same as him. That didn't go well for either of them.

I'm very glad you don't "identify" as a horse. As a Dire Wolf myself, I'm afraid that if you did, the hunt would be on!

.

(08-04-2020, 07:20 AM)Ninurta Wrote: I'm a Conservative as conservatives were 200 years ago. We don't care who you are, or what we can get from you or make you do. We are content to live our lives, and for you to live yours, as each of us see fit to do.

Forget Conservative, that's just the best type of Mindset period, and exactly how I see the World, just from the other side!

I knew I liked you @"Ninurta" 

(08-04-2020, 10:43 AM)Moonmagic Wrote:

(08-04-2020, 07:20 AM)Ninurta Wrote: I'm a Conservative as conservatives were 200 years ago. We don't care who you are, or what we can get from you or make you do. We are content to live our lives, and for you to live yours, as each of us see fit to do.

Forget Conservative, that's just the best type of Mindset period, and exactly how I see the World, just from the other side!

I knew I liked you @"Ninurta" 

It's why I'm an anomaly, a throwback, an anachronism. "Conservative" and "Liberal" are not polar opposites, at least in the Classic sense. "Conservatives" want to keep things as they were, i.e. "Conserve" the status quo. "Liberals", in a classic sense, are all about "liberty", the very root of their label.

Once upon a time, Liberty WAS the status quo, and that is what classic Conservatives AND Classic Liberals want to get back to.

Somewhere along the line, Marxist ideology got injected into the mix, and "Liberal" became synonymous with "anything goes", which it did not originally denote.

The polar opposite of "conservative" is actually "progressive", which nowadays means the same thing as "Marxist". That, in combination with the above thought, is why Liberals have a bad name among Conservatives, and are thought of as the opposition.

It was not always so.

.

(08-04-2020, 07:20 AM)Ninurta Wrote: Ummm... I self-identify as a large black Dire Wolf, and am therefore the last living representative of my species on your planet. It's a very lonely existence. Will that work?

It’s not for me to judge but if you have fleas, ticks, rabies, bite or pee on my furniture, I’ll probably not be asking you over for a beer. At least you’re not a cat and I will respect your canine pronouns.  

Quote:In all honesty, this "self identification" trap is some bullshit. You either ARE something, or you ain't, and "Self identification" means nothing. It's just an invented mess that has recently come on to the scene just to confuse folks and make them look small when they don't get right with the program. For example, you are a woman. You don't "self-identify" as a woman, you just ARE one. I'm a simple man, with a simple mind, and that is how I keep everything straight in my own world.

I must be simple too because I see things the same way and it all seems kind of silly to me. I don’t “identify” as what I am, I just am. Why everyone needs some special label escapes me? I’ve been given a label I never asked for or wanted and one I don’t use except in conversations like this one.

When the term “self identification” is used, that is actually something different than the “I identify as” crap as it is a legal thing that trans activist in the UK are pushing for. What that means specifically is being able to change your gender/sex on legal documents just on say so without any kind medical oversight or treatment. I think this is a crappy idea. Self-ID is available in several US states like Kalifornia as you might expect and legal in Ireland, Malta, Norway, Argentina, Portugal and Belgium. Within the transgender lexicon, I am what they call a truscum or a trans-medicalist as a pejorative because I don’t believe you can be trans without gender dysphoria which requires a medical diagnosis and not just somebody claiming what they are because of their feelz.

Quote:A phrase that confuses me to no end is "trans-woman" or "trans-man". I don't know how to unpack those phrases, is that person a man who became a woman, or a woman who became a man, or vice-versa?

It does seem a bit counterintuitive but the term is meant to be representative of what a trans person has transitioned into and presents as. Therefore, trans women are biologically male that transition to be women and trans men are biological females that transition to live as men. Technically, I am considered a trans woman but that is not a description I use for myself or something I am seen as. I am just a woman first and foremost but one of trans experience/history is how I prefer to put it if I have to put it at all.

Quote:What bearing does "trans" have on life in the real world? What does what one WAS matter in what one now IS?

Well, for the majority of trans folks, being trans as you can imagine, especially for those who are visibly trans or for those that go through transition publicly like while still on the same job for example it is a pretty big deal because it is something that upsets a lot of people. It can lead to discrimination in housing and employment and a person can face hostility and prejudice. There can be legal issues involved too like getting correct documents and people generally take several years getting through the process. Then there’s the whole social matter of being possibly rejected by your friends, family and parents that most struggle with and can often be heartbreaking not to mention that those that medically transition, depending on how much they need to do to calm their distress, have to deal with doctors and hormones and surgeries and hair removal or a double mastectomy and how to pay for it all.

The majority (80%+) of transgender people do not have bottom or genital reconstruction surgery which alone costs $18,000 to $25,000  for male to female in the US so many go to Thailand where it is considerably cheaper but has higher logistical costs. Female to male lower surgery can cost upwards of $100,000 as it is considerably more involved and takes a series of surgeries for phalloplasty. Facial hair removal can cost $10 to $20K and take several years of laser and painful electrolysis and most MtF’s go for a breast augmentation costing $6,000 to $8,000 and many also go for brutal facial feminization surgery that can cost $35,000 to $50,000 and for those that do opt for surgeries there’s the pain and recovery thing so all in all, it has a great bearing in the real world for the people that go through all this.For some, being trans in an identity in and of itself.

Quote:Why can we not simplify and see what is, and ignore what was?

That’s a good question but this is something most people can’t get past. This is especially true if someone’s gender is ambiguous or called into question. For a lot of men insecure about their masculinity or sexuality, should they be attracted to a trans woman, they can question their own heterosexuality  and become very uncomfortable.

I was fortunate in more than a few ways. I started off as small and girlish and looked like a girl to begin with and was feminine by nature and in manner. My parents legally changed my name while I was still a minor and had the records sealed way back in 1972 so I don’t have much of a paper trail to haunt me and since I’d only recently begun natal puberty when I started taking cross-sex hormones at 17, my body never really masculinized that much and stayed on the small side (I’m 5’5½” tall) and while I had some peachfuzz I had zapped off, I never had terminal facial hair or had to shave and on HRT, my hips grew wide and I developed breasts and I have had and still have long hair since I was eight or nine. It was simply impractical for me to live as a boy but this is not the case for most trans people and I am kind of the exception of the rule particularly for those of my generation. I’ve never been, lived as or been socialized as a man and don’t know what that’s like. Even people that do know I was born male see me only as a girl/woman as that’s all I’ve known.

The vast majority of trans people do not transition until later in life, usually somewhere between 35 and 45 years old long after puberty and becoming fully masculine and unless they spend the $100,000 on surgeries are often visibly trans and face a lot of social and emotional consequences for it.

Quote:I'd be a great deal happier if folks would just come out and say what they ARE, and leave out the confusing qualifier of "trans" out of the matter altogether.

Sorry for the bad stereotype and visual but if a 6’2" fifty year old with broad shoulders, a deep voice and a heavy masculine build with a poorly concealed 5 o’clock shadow comes out and tells you they are a woman are you going to buy it and just accept them for who they say they are? That’s admirable but chances are you might not be as accepting as you think you might be? Just sayn’. I honestly don’t know why anyone would want to announce their transness unless it is impossible to not pass as their target gender.  

Quote:In general, among acquaintances, I don't need to know what was in order to process what is unless there is intimacy on the horizon and I might encounter unexpected plumbing. Now THAT might start a lively conversation!

Transgender people with “unexpected plumbing” are encouraged to disclose their status upfront. Don’t confuse them with “traps” that are usually cross-dressing gay males.

Quote:Well, I AM a Conservative, but an old-school Conservative, not one of these Neocons who try to pass off their Marxist BS as "Conservative", and who have come to represent conservatism in the last few years to the point that younger folks think they somehow ARE conservative when they are not. That may not make much sense to many folks, so it may be easier to say I'm a Conservative as conservatives were 200 years ago. We don't care who you are, or what we can get from you or make you do. We are content to live our lives, and for you to live yours, as each of us see fit to do.

This is all beyond me because I’m not very much of a political person however to me, what passes as conservative today is pretty much anti-LGBTx as part of the Republican platform and is overly concerned what people do in their bedrooms or to their bodies.

Quote:That's why I don't understand the members of the LGBTQXYZ community who feel a need to throw it in your face - the "this is what I am, and you WILL like it!" sort of thing. I don't care what they are, and I don't have to like anything. Is it not enough that I accept it, and get on with my own life and leave them to get on with theirs? WHY must I LIKE it? After all, if I'm not involved in it, it ain't none of my business. It makes no sense to my simple mind.

I can’t really answer that because I am not involved with the alphabet community. I don’t think they want you to LIKE it, just to know that they exist and want to be treated fairly and equally. I know many of them feel the same way about heterosexuality being constantly shoved down their throats at every turn and are tired of being marginalized for being different. I’m not the right person to ask about this but when it comes to radical loud-mouthed in-your-face trans activists, I wish they would all shut the hell up.

Quote:I'm a redneck, of the hillbilly sort, and don't hate anyone for simply existing. We've all got that right, the right to exist unmolested. Now, I may get pretty frustrated with folks when their political ideology overrides and attempts to force conquest of my own, but that's a horse of a different color from mere existence. Simple existence is not a problem - it's when folks try to force me into their own mold that problems develop, as then they are questioning MY existence. If I ain't questioning theirs, they need to be leaving mine alone, too.

Someone is trying to force you into being gay or trans? I’m not sure I understand? I’m a live and let live person too unless somebody comes after me then watch out. I’m armed and dangerous!  

Quote:I can understand that. Those Heinz-57 types also threaten YOUR existence, trying to force folks like you out into the open where they become vulnerable to the whims of lesser folk, and that ain't cool. Live and let live, let folks just be folks. There is no reason to force an agenda down someone else's throat, unless the forcer is somehow insecure in their own skin and needs validation from outside themselves. To be brutally honest, they won't find that here - the moment they try to force an agenda on me is the instant they won't get acceptance of their agenda. It's theirs, not mine. I've got my own troubles to deal with, ain't got time for theirs.

No, forcing anything on anyone is not cool and I’m not trying to force anything on anyone here. I know a lot of folks don’t like people like me and that’s their prerogative just like a lot of folks don’t like blacks or Mexicans or Muslims or whatever and I’m not out to force or change anyone’s mind or beliefs. My only agenda is to shed some light and bring some information about folks like me that maybe because they didn’t know about these things, some might have more information about the subject to have better informed opinions. I can present information, what you do with it is up to you.

Quote:Well, since you brought it up, I do have to wonder about the interpersonal relationships aspect of life. I just cannot fathom how that conversation goes, how one navigates that minefield, as I've never had to deal with it. I wouldn't even begin to know how to.

Yeah, you and me both and how I have dealt with has evolved a bit over the years. I don’t have to tell anyone if I don’t want to. I can get naked and have sex like any other woman and I have done that in the past and not mentioned it but I am not one to have hookups without an emotional connection and getting to know someone really well first.

Thirty-five + years ago when I met my husband, a rough and tough heavy line dealership mechanic and a redneck and kind of a bigot and homophobe himself, we had been friends for a year and I had been sleeping with him for a couple of months and hadn’t told him because it wasn’t important but realizing I was really falling in love with this idiot and this was something serious with a future, I knew sooner or later I would have to tell him. I wouldn't want to hide something that was a pretty big factor in my life from some I loved or have them find out from someone else first.

Of course, your first thought is that they’re immediately going to dump you with the second thought they might react badly and beat the shit out of you or just flat out kill you so one evening I screwed up my courage and immediately broke down in tears crying like a baby because this is something difficult for me to deal with and I needed to know if I was going to lose him before becoming more invested in our relationship.

I simply told him the short version of what I’ve posted here – that I was born male but grew up to be a girl and had an operation to fix things and he didn’t even get it at first. I thought for a minute I was going to have to get crayons and draw a picture but once it did click, he got pretty quiet and didn’t say much and was kind of in shock. Since I had been so emotional and crying like no tomorrow, he picked me up and carried me to bed and held me until I cried myself to sleep. We got up the next morning and headed off to work saying very little and avoiding eye contact.

I figured that was it and we were done and I was completely heartbroken and crushed. I felt he was the one that had to figure things out and I gave him space and left him alone feeling completely devastated and mad at the moon for the fucked up way I was born and was mentally and emotionally wrecked especially after three  weeks and I hadn’t heard a word from him.

Then he called me at work late one afternoon and because he's an asshole, he said playfully “Hey bitch! Where the hell you been at? Get over here and make me a sammich right now!”  I totally lost it and in tears, I left work right then and went straight to his house. It was like nothing ever happened. Sometime thereafter, we got married and I was with him for the next 12 years of my life. He was and still is a great guy. Although he has remarried to someone 15 years younger than me and it was 23 years ago that we got divorced, him and his wife are still a part of my life and treat me like family. In fact, since January I’m living in the house he still owns but doesn’t live in that I lived in when we were married. I think that’s pretty cool.

In one of the 5-year live-in relationships I was in after that, I was with the person for two years before it came up and all I got was a “Wow! Really?” and other than filling in a few details over the next few years, it was never an issue and something that just wasn’t important.

How I would handle it now, I really don’t know and it all depends? If one of these guys I’ve been hanging out with at the bar and have gotten to know well the last 3 or 4 years would suddenly show an interest, I would probably have the talk with them before starting a relationship to avoid the disappointment of being rejected if it was a big deal for them. Sometimes I think I’d rather wait until having sex with them for a while would make them more likely to not care but I just don’t know?

I know some people might see this as deceptive or guilt by omission but why should I have to disclose a medical condition I had corrected well more than four decades ago when I’ve never been anything but a woman my entire adult life? It is a quandary and probably why I haven’t been involved with anyone for the last 12 or 13 years.

Thank you so much for your comments and questions and for the opportunity to talk about these things. Sorry for talking so much! :smalleyeroll:

(08-02-2020, 05:09 AM)Freija Wrote:

I try to avoid the people I know are trans/homophobic and racist but it isn’t always possible.

So any questions or comments about anything from anyone else? Now’s your chance to let it out because I don’t usually bring this topic up unless someone else does first.

Dayumn!!  Was wondering where you have been.  You haven't been avoiding me, have you?

Here's a trans male/female human being I just love.  As a matter of fact her mantra is "I love my life"  all the time.  Animals welfare is her forte of life, she loves them all.  That's why to me, she's an awesome human being, being humane. Jessica Savano is a very special caring person. 

My goodness, that was incredible! You took Ninurta's musings and curiosity and turned it into a full onconversation that helps to explain so much. I, for one appreciate the time you've taken to show not our differences, but rather to show just how much we all share and have as commonality. Your post really gave me some in depth insight and I feel like I not only got to know you a little better but you also helped me to understand more about the entire transgender phenomenon and community. So thanks for taking the time to do that. I really do appreciate the effort. Knowledge erases ignorance and helps us all relate better and be a little more empathetic to others plights and experiences. A very good thing by my estimation. (-:

(08-04-2020, 12:39 PM)Ninurta Wrote:

(08-04-2020, 10:43 AM)Moonmagic Wrote:

(08-04-2020, 07:20 AM)Ninurta Wrote: I'm a Conservative as conservatives were 200 years ago. We don't care who you are, or what we can get from you or make you do. We are content to live our lives, and for you to live yours, as each of us see fit to do.

Forget Conservative, that's just the best type of Mindset period, and exactly how I see the World, just from the other side!

I knew I liked you @"Ninurta" 

It's why I'm an anomaly, a throwback, an anachronism. "Conservative" and "Liberal" are not polar opposites, at least in the Classic sense. "Conservatives" want to keep things as they were, i.e. "Conserve" the status quo. "Liberals", in a classic sense, are all about "liberty", the very root of their label.

Once upon a time, Liberty WAS the status quo, and that is what classic Conservatives AND Classic Liberals want to get back to.

Somewhere along the line, Marxist ideology got injected into the mix, and "Liberal" became synonymous with "anything goes", which it did not originally denote.

The polar opposite of "conservative" is actually "progressive", which nowadays means the same thing as "Marxist". That, in combination with the above thought, is why Liberals have a bad name among Conservatives, and are thought of as the opposition.

It was not always so.

.

Old school Conservative and Liberal makes a lot of sense to me, there seems to be plenty of common ground and none of that ''team sports'' feel that seems to ooze from everything conservative and liberal these days.
Everything is either left or right and if you are left you are ''insert stereotypical nonsense'' or if you are right your opinions are ''insert more stereotypical nonsense''. I just can't get behind that because it doesn't make actual sense, unless it's a team you support and not the actual ideas themselves. Unfortunately it's more of a team thing nowadays than actual honest thought and criticism about the ideology you chose to follow or believe in.

I lean left, but I am nothing like the stereotype, and no lefty I have ever met actually is! it's far more nuanced than the internet wars and media would have people believe. One of the many reasons I just won't get involved in the fights online, I always feel I have more common ground with people than not, and you are proof of that. You seem to see most things much the same way I do.

I'd welcome those old definitions back in a heartbeat, what we have right now, is a tit for tat team sport, I can't get behind any of that!

@"Freija" 

That was absolutely eye opening, both of your post.
The thing is, I think you might find more caring and loving and openness here at R-N.
You'll not only find the Honestly Curious and the Cartoons in the Funny threads, but the important thing is, you're respected and you are thought of as just one of us. 

I hope I explained myself good here, My husband is not here right now and Yes I Had To Use My Translator, Sorry.

When type in looks a lot like this.

这两篇文章都令人大开眼界。
问题是，我想您可能会在R-N那里找到更多的关怀，爱心和开放。
您不仅可以在“搞笑”主题中找到“诚实好奇”和“卡通”，而且重要的是，您受到尊重，被认为只是我们中的一员。

Thanks for sharing @"Freija" 

I appreciate your input. I'm just a simple old guy who really just don't like people in general anymore. 

I'm not homophobic , sexist, and what every other name they throw out there for old white guys like me. 

I just don't give a fuck, people can go live how ever they want to and I will live like I want to. I judge a person based on character, not any other way. 

I admit, I didn't read your entire posts yet, but promise to catch up. 

I didn't sound to grumpy, did I? 

(08-04-2020, 02:22 PM)Snarl Wrote: Dayumn!!  Was wondering where you have been.  You haven't been avoiding me, have you?

No Snarly old chap, why would I do that?

One of the things that helps keep me sane is Hanlon's razor that goes:

"Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by stupidity"

D'OH!


It's all good!  

Thanks so much to @"kdog" , @"Antisthenes", @"guohua". @"Ninurta", @"Moonmagic", @"Wallfire", @"NightskyeB4Dawn"  and everyone else and to all of RN3 for being so awesome! (even @"Snarl" and @"beez")

(08-04-2020, 01:00 PM)Freija Wrote: It’s not for me to judge but if you have fleas, ticks, rabies, bite or pee on my furniture, I’ll probably not be asking you over for a beer. At least you’re not a cat and I will respect your canine pronouns.  

That'll work. I've not had fleas in over 10 years (wearing flea collars as knee-bands worked for me - no shit!), haven't had a tick in over 2 years (I think my blood alcohol level poisons them or something), and I agree that offering a beer to someone already prone to pee on furniture is probably a bad idea. As for naming conventions, I respond to "Spike" better than "Spot", and certainly not "Fluffy"!

Quote:When the term “self identification” is used, that is actually something different than the “I identify as” crap as it is a legal thing that trans activist in the UK are pushing for. What that means specifically is being able to change your gender/sex on legal documents just on say so without any kind medical oversight or treatment. I think this is a crappy idea. Self-ID is available in several US states like Kalifornia as you might expect and legal in Ireland, Malta, Norway, Argentina, Portugal and Belgium. Within the transgender lexicon, I am what they call a truscum or a trans-medicalist as a pejorative because I don’t believe you can be trans without gender dysphoria which requires a medical diagnosis and not just somebody claiming what they are because of their feelz.

I think we agree here. If I self-identify as a baseball bat, that won't translate well to grabbing me by the knees and trying to whack a ball with me. Feelz and Realz don't always coincide, despite the efforts of some to make it so. I think there has to be a bit more than a mere self-identification to make stuff happen.

Quote:It does seem a bit counterintuitive but the term is meant to be representative of what a trans person has transitioned into and presents as. Therefore, trans women are biologically male that transition to be women and trans men are biological females that transition to live as men. Technically, I am considered a trans woman but that is not a description I use for myself or something I am seen as. I am just a woman first and foremost but one of trans experience/history is how I prefer to put it if I have to put it at all.

Thanks for the explanation. It helps me comprehend. It seems that the finial term is the important one, from my perspective. All I wanted to understand is what that individual wants to be known as, and the "trans" part was confusing me - I didn't understand which way the transition was moving as it was phrased.

Quote:Well, for the majority of trans folks, being trans as you can imagine, especially for those who are visibly trans or for those that go through transition publicly like while still on the same job for example it is a pretty big deal because it is something that upsets a lot of people. It can lead to discrimination in housing and employment and a person can face hostility and prejudice. There can be legal issues involved too like getting correct documents and people generally take several years getting through the process. Then there’s the whole social matter of being possibly rejected by your friends, family and parents that most struggle with and can often be heartbreaking not to mention that those that medically transition, depending on how much they need to do to calm their distress, have to deal with doctors and hormones and surgeries and hair removal or a double mastectomy and how to pay for it all.

I can understand the trauma involved in a public transition, but in the final analysis, the only thing that matters to me is how they want to be seen in the now. If I was not there for the transition, then throwing "trans" in there just confuses my simple mind. Now, it may be that due to the trauma of the past, they would want to be up front and let me know ahead of time to avoid traumas of the present, but really my own past worries me a lot more than theirs worries me. What is, is, and what was is gone. I think frank, non-confrontational conversations, had once and not continually hammered in would accomplish that fairly well with folks like me.

Quote:The majority (80%+) of transgender people do not have bottom or genital reconstruction surgery which alone costs $18,000 to $25,000  for male to female in the US so many go to Thailand where it is considerably cheaper but has higher logistical costs. Female to male lower surgery can cost upwards of $100,000 as it is considerably more involved and takes a series of surgeries for phalloplasty. Facial hair removal can cost $10 to $20K and take several years of laser and painful electrolysis and most MtF’s go for a breast augmentation costing $6,000 to $8,000 and many also go for brutal facial feminization surgery that can cost $35,000 to $50,000 and for those that do opt for surgeries there’s the pain and recovery thing so all in all, it has a great bearing in the real world for the people that go through all this.For some, being trans in an identity in and of itself.

To be honest, the price of the bottom surgery sound like a bargain. My wife's ex husband used to beat her, and he hit her so hard once it crushed her nose, necessitatiing reconstructive surgery. It cost 15 k to reconstruct a mere nose, and it seems to me that genitalia are more intricate, and m-f surgery should cost quite a bit more.

Quote:That’s a good question but this is something most people can’t get past. This is especially true if someone’s gender is ambiguous or called into question. For a lot of men insecure about their masculinity or sexuality, should they be attracted to a trans woman, they can question their own heterosexuality  and become very uncomfortable.

And I think that is what it all boils down to - the insecurity of the observer. That is a tough nut to crack - I have no idea how one would install security in a person insecure at their core.

Quote:Sorry for the bad stereotype and visual but if a 6’2" fifty year old with broad shoulders, a deep voice and a heavy masculine build with a poorly concealed 5 o’clock shadow comes out and tells you they are a woman are you going to buy it and just accept them for who they say they are? That’s admirable but chances are you might not be as accepting as you think you might be? Just sayn’. I honestly don’t know why anyone would want to announce their transness unless it is impossible to not pass as their target gender.  

Nope. being honest here, I wouldn't buy it at all. I'd accept  it, but not BELIEVE it right down in the middle of me. Too much incongruity for me to process. As an aside, your example pretty much describes ME, except I'm older than that and my 5 o'clock shadow has now translated into a white beard nearly down to my belt. oh-and I'm not a woman, won't even attempt to pass as one. The beard would probably give it away anyhow. That, and the way my knuckles drag the ground when I try to walk upright.

Quote:Transgender people with “unexpected plumbing” are encouraged to disclose their status upfront. Don’t confuse them with “traps” that are usually cross-dressing gay males.

Yeah, I'm just coming to grips with the difference between transgender and cross-dressing. Be gentle, I'm fragile... but only slightly confused by this point. I'm getting there.

Quote:This is all beyond me because I’m not very much of a political person however to me, what passes as conservative today is pretty much anti-LGBTx as part of the Republican platform and is overly concerned what people do in their bedrooms or to their bodies.

Exactly. You are not alone - a great many people confuse "Conservative" with "Republican". I used to be a Republican, but in the early to mid 1990's I left that party because of the hostile Neocon takeover of it. Neocons are not Conservatives, but since for a time the Republican party was conservative, and then got taken over by Neocons who are not, it left a lot of folks confused as to what "conservative" is. As a Conservative, I don't care what other folks do in their bedrooms - it's THEIR bedroom, not mine, and I've got my own to concern myself with. No time left for me to police theirs - they ought to be able to do that on their own.

Quote:I can’t really answer that because I am not involved with the alphabet community. I don’t think they want you to LIKE it, just to know that they exist and want to be treated fairly and equally. I know many of them feel the same way about heterosexuality being constantly shoved down their throats at every turn and are tired of being marginalized for being different. I’m not the right person to ask about this but when it comes to radical loud-mouthed in-your-face trans activists, I wish they would all shut the hell up.

I can see it up to a point. I argued in favor of gay marriage, but that, to my mind, was simple - it was equality under the law. Legal issues of equality are fairly clear-cut, but social issues are a bit foggier, and religious ones foggier still. Social convention cannot be legislated. Oh, folks can TRY to pass laws enforcing it, but at the end of the day, people are going to do what they are going to do, and believe what they are going to believe, and just take it underground of laws are passed in an effort to change their thinking. Legislation of social concerns is doomed to failure because of that. No amount of screaming will change that, and is, in fact, counter-productive, serving only to entrench the opposition in their ways and beliefs.

Quote:Someone is trying to force you into being gay or trans? I’m not sure I understand? I’m a live and let live person too unless somebody comes after me then watch out. I’m armed and dangerous!    

No. I'm sorry that I wasn't clearer. I was speaking of political issues, and tend to forget that you are an apolitical sort of gal. I'm sort of just like you, in that I am who and what I am, and no one can force me to be anyone or anything else. I've had several gay friends (no trans friends - that I know of, anyhow), and have never had any trouble. None of them ever approached me sexually, or tried to "put the moves" on me. Maybe they valued the friendship more, or maybe I'm just too ugly. Don't know, don't care. The only time I've ever been approached in that manner was by a stranger, and after I made it clear that wasn't going to happen because I don't swing that way, he just went away. No harm, no foul, no trouble.

Quote:No, forcing anything on anyone is not cool and I’m not trying to force anything on anyone here. I know a lot of folks don’t like people like me and that’s their prerogative just like a lot of folks don’t like blacks or Mexicans or Muslims or whatever and I’m not out to force or change anyone’s mind or beliefs. My only agenda is to shed some light and bring some information about folks like me that maybe because they didn’t know about these things, some might have more information about the subject to have better informed opinions. I can present information, what you do with it is up to you.

I can appreciate that, and I DO appreciate the education. One never stops learning until one dies, and I'm not entirely convinced even that is the end of education. I don't think you are trying to force anything on anyone, and apologize if I left that impression. It's pretty clear you are not - you asked if people had questions, you didn't come in trying to kick their bar stools out from under them.

Quote:Thank you so much for your comments and questions and for the opportunity to talk about these things. Sorry for talking so much!  :smalleyeroll:

No problem. You're not talking too much. There are depths to be plumbed here that short and trite answers will not suffice to explain.

I appreciate the insight into how the subject is breached with guys you may get involved with. I myself am a good deal more blunt when getting into a relationship with a gal, but there is a lot to be said for a softer approach, I suppose. In my case, I just come right out and say "I'm an asshole. You can either live with that, or live without it, but either way I'm still gonna be an asshole". Softness is just not my forte. Grace can verify that is exactly how I approach the situation... and she can verify that I'm an asshole, too. Like I told her right in the beginning - "I come with references"!

.

(08-04-2020, 10:51 PM)guohua Wrote: The thing is, I think you might find more caring and loving and openness here at R-N.

Without a doubt.