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Scottish bill criminalizes insults pronounced at home
#1
So Gordi, whats this all about

Quote:[Image: humza-yousaf.jpg]Humza Yousaf. Photo: The Scottish Government, OGL v1.0

According to Scottish Justice Minister Humza Yousaf, the bill criminalises "promoting hatred" against "protected groups", which includes insulting comments in people's own homes.

Then Yousaf was questioned by the Scottish Parliament's Justice Committee on Tuesday assured the minister that the bill will protect the "right to be offensive." At the same time, anyone who "promotes hatred" towards others based on religion, age, disability, sexual orientation, transidentity or "variations in sexual characteristics" will be prosecuted.

This includes conversations at the dinner table in your own home with friends and family. As an example, Yousaf gave hatred towards Muslims, which he questions should be justified just because it is done at home.


READ ALSO: New proposed laws against 'hatred' in Scotland meet opposition among cultural figures
The scope of the bill's so-called hate speech is broad and would criminalize anyone who acts in a "threatening, abusive or insulting manner" against any of the protecting groups.
Exactly how to ensure that the law is complied with in the Scottish homes was not something Yousaf went into. As the law is drafted, however, no specific victim is required for the insult, only proof that the perpetrator was motivated by "malice" and a report of "a source" may be sufficient to secure a verdict.
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WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH, THE EU IS FATHER AND MOTHER / FEAR NOT DEATH, BUT FEAR THE WAY YOU WILL DIE
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#2
*BIAD whispers under the dinner table: "Caledonian Sharia?"
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"They watch from behind complacent smiles whilst polishing their cutlery. Yet, with egg between the prongs"
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#3
(10-30-2020, 05:34 PM)Wallfire Wrote: So Gordi, whats this all about

Quote:[Image: humza-yousaf.jpg]Humza Yousaf. Photo: The Scottish Government, OGL v1.0

According to Scottish Justice Minister Humza Yousaf, the bill criminalises "promoting hatred" against "protected groups", which includes insulting comments in people's own homes.

Then Yousaf was questioned by the Scottish Parliament's Justice Committee on Tuesday assured the minister that the bill will protect the "right to be offensive." At the same time, anyone who "promotes hatred" towards others based on religion, age, disability, sexual orientation, transidentity or "variations in sexual characteristics" will be prosecuted.

This includes conversations at the dinner table in your own home with friends and family. As an example, Yousaf gave hatred towards Muslims, which he questions should be justified just because it is done at home.


READ ALSO: New proposed laws against 'hatred' in Scotland meet opposition among cultural figures
The scope of the bill's so-called hate speech is broad and would criminalize anyone who acts in a "threatening, abusive or insulting manner" against any of the protecting groups.
Exactly how to ensure that the law is complied with in the Scottish homes was not something Yousaf went into. As the law is drafted, however, no specific victim is required for the insult, only proof that the perpetrator was motivated by "malice" and a report of "a source" may be sufficient to secure a verdict.
link

Quickest way to fertilize hatred. 

Anyone that has ever raised a child, knows that nothing generates animosity as quickly as telling one child that they have bend to the will of another child to accomplish unrealistic expectations. 

Tell a child, "Tommy get off that swing and let this little one swing for a while, he wants the swing, give him the swing or you won't get ice cream after dinner". Guaranteed that Tommy is going to hate the kid he just met, and will likely remove him the minute your back is turned.

You can't force people to like each other. It would be wonderful if people really treated others the way they want to be treated, but you will rarely find that. So punishing people for saying things that others may find hateful or offensive, just adds fuel to the fire.
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#4
Buy ammo and zip lock bags...
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#5
(10-30-2020, 05:34 PM)Wallfire Wrote: So Gordi, whats this all about.....?

I'd sum it up in two words... "sensationalist misreporting".

Paraphrasing the BBC's report on it:

The Scottish Government asked a senior judge, Lord Bracadale, to examine all of the country's existing hate crime legislation to make sure it was still fit for purpose in the 21st Century.

And it has now introduced the "Hate Crime and Public Order" bill to the Scottish Parliament in response to his recommendations.

It aims to simplify and clarify the law by bringing together the various existing hate crime laws into a single piece of legislation.

The Scottish government has already said that the bill will ensure that only people who intended to stir up hatred will ever be prosecuted

So, NO it doesn't include "insulting comments in people's own homes" or "conversations at the dinner table in your own home with friends and family" unless those comments are specifically intended to stir up hatred towards a protected group.

Useful LINKS:
BBC article about the HATE CRIME legislation
NEWS Item on the official ScotGov website regarding the New Legislation

cheers,
G
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#6
(10-30-2020, 08:38 PM)gordi Wrote: So, NO it doesn't include "insulting comments in people's own homes" or "conversations at the dinner table in your own home with friends and family" unless those comments are specifically intended to stir up hatred towards a protected group.

Useful LINKS:
BBC article about the HATE CRIME legislation
NEWS Item on the official ScotGov website regarding the New Legislation

cheers,
G

Unless?

UNLESS?

So, yeah, it DOES police private conversation in the home then... 

I'd like to read the proposed legislation. I'd like to see what sort of evidence of "intent" it requires before talking becomes a criminal action.

ETA: I read the Scottish government website posting on the matter. It appears that intent is to be shown by the individual's "behaviour and actions", but does not get any more specific on what those "behaviours and actions" must be to rise to the level of criminality. That is troublingly open-ended, but not as troubling as the notion that seems to have taken hold of the world that filial amity can somehow be legislated.

I don't tell folks who to like - I leave that up to them - and they are not going to tell me whom I have to like - or can't like - either. This is not isolated to Scotland - it's all over the place now. The notion of a "hate crime" has always bothered me - is there such a thing as a "love crime", where the attacker loves the victim? Does it make the victim any more dead or injured because hate is involved? It is an utterly ridiculous notion to my mind, but Scotland should do as Scottish folk please. I have my own demons to fight in US governance, and have no legitimate say in Scottish matters.

.
“There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.” ― Ernest Hemingway

ATTN Jihiadis:

.تكلم محمد في سبيل الله. ليس انت. ليس انت

Takalam Muhamad fi sabil Allh. Lays anta. Lays anta.= Mohammed spoke for Allah. Not you. Not you.


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#7
Quote:The notion of a "hate crime" has always bothered me - is there such a thing as a "love crime", where the attacker loves the victim? 

Yes. I was a victim of a supposed love crime.

It happened many years ago, and I made the mistake of thinking it was funny, at the time.

When my ex told me he loved me so much that he could not live with the thought of me being with someone else, I just thought he was being overly dramatic. Until he broke into my home,  told me if he could not have me no one would. He thought he had killed me, so he set my house on fire to hide the evidence. It turned out for me that I was lucky that he did, because it got my neighbor's attention and he was able to rescue me from the fire and get me medical help. 

I call that graveyard love and I have stayed clear of it ever since.

It may also have something to do with me being single for so many years.
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#8
(10-30-2020, 11:18 PM)Ninurta Wrote: Unless?

UNLESS?

So, yeah, it DOES police private conversation in the home then... 

Not if your conversation isn't inciting hatred and violence towards protected groups it isn't.

The implication in the OP was that the legislation would impact on making "insulting comments in peoples own homes". It won't.
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#9
(10-30-2020, 11:51 PM)NightskyeB4Dawn Wrote:
Quote:The notion of a "hate crime" has always bothered me - is there such a thing as a "love crime", where the attacker loves the victim? 

Yes. I was a victim of a supposed love crime.

It happened many years ago, and I made the mistake of thinking it was funny, at the time.

When my ex told me he loved me so much that he could not live with the thought of me being with someone else, I just thought he was being overly dramatic. Until he broke into my home,  told me if he could not have me no one would. He thought he had killed me, so he set my house on fire to hide the evidence. It turned out for me that I was lucky that he did, because it got my neighbor's attention and he was able to rescue me from the fire and get me medical help. 

I call that graveyard love and I have stayed clear of it ever since.

It may also have something to do with me being single for so many years.

I'm sorry you had to go through that.

I don't know about the culture where you are, but here where I am there is not definition of "love" that allows one to murder the object of their affection. That is sort of self-defeating. Around here, we call that sort of activity "murder", and in your specific case, "attempted murder", both of which are already crimes in this jurisdiction. Adding "love" or "hate" either one to it does not make it any more, or any less, heinous.

I'm just not grasping why anyone wants to criminalize emotion without action, and if the action is criminal, it should be already illegal regardless of emotions. The emotion neither adds to nor detracts from the content of the crime. Hell, if we criminalize emotion, I had two ex wives who would have died in prison instead of hospice, and one ex still living who would be destined to die in prison! Regardless of our differences, I would wish that on none of them not even the one that robbed me blind. It was enough for me to just get the hell away from them.

.
“There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.” ― Ernest Hemingway

ATTN Jihiadis:

.تكلم محمد في سبيل الله. ليس انت. ليس انت

Takalam Muhamad fi sabil Allh. Lays anta. Lays anta.= Mohammed spoke for Allah. Not you. Not you.


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#10
(10-31-2020, 12:16 AM)gordi Wrote:
(10-30-2020, 11:18 PM)Ninurta Wrote: Unless?

UNLESS?

So, yeah, it DOES police private conversation in the home then... 

Not if your conversation isn't inciting hatred and violence towards protected groups it isn't.

The implication in the OP was that the legislation would impact on making "insulting comments in peoples own homes". It won't.

There is that word "if" - closely allied to "unless".

Doesn't that then devolve to the issue of how "hatred", "violence", and "incite" are interpreted? Not to mention the potential of policing folks in their own homes.

I know people who would categorize "insult" as "violence", for example. That's been a going thing here in The Colonies - folks interpreting insult, or speech in general, as "microagression", and then extending that to making mere speech a violent act.

I can see this legislation going down that route without appropriate safeguards in place, and I did not find comfort that those safeguards would be put in place on the government website - just vague pronouncements of "actions or behaviors", which themselves can be interpreted, or misinterpreted as the case may be, to be "violence".

I'm not sure I want to exist in a world where Scotsmen are barred from offering insult when insult is warranted! I just do not believe "insult" or even "hate speech" should be classified as criminal until it leaves a visible mark. Wounded pride is not cause for criminal action.

What is said in my house is none of the government's concern, no "ifs", "ands", unlesses", or "but's" about it. If folks don't want to be insulted or "hate thoughted" in my house, and they feel that's a possibility, then they might do well to stay out of my house, problem solved.

.
“There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.” ― Ernest Hemingway

ATTN Jihiadis:

.تكلم محمد في سبيل الله. ليس انت. ليس انت

Takalam Muhamad fi sabil Allh. Lays anta. Lays anta.= Mohammed spoke for Allah. Not you. Not you.


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#11
You know life is funny. What I thought at the time was, this has to be the worse thing that could happen to me. It actually turned out to be one of the things that motivated me to be all that I could be. 

I have few regrets, though I have made numerous mistakes throughout my life. Each was a valuable lesson learned and some, like the one I shared, forged me by fire, strengthen me, making me who I am today.

I agree. When someone takes the life of another, regardless of the excuse they use. Dead is dead. There is no special place in American culture that changes murder into something else because it is labeled as a hate crime, or a crime of paasion. As far as I am concerned, hate or graveyard love, falls in the same category.
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#12
(10-30-2020, 08:38 PM)gordi Wrote:
(10-30-2020, 05:34 PM)Wallfire Wrote: So Gordi, whats this all about.....?

I'd sum it up in two words... "sensationalist misreporting".

Paraphrasing the BBC's report on it:

The Scottish Government asked a senior judge, Lord Bracadale, to examine all of the country's existing hate crime legislation to make sure it was still fit for purpose in the 21st Century.

And it has now introduced the "Hate Crime and Public Order" bill to the Scottish Parliament in response to his recommendations.

It aims to simplify and clarify the law by bringing together the various existing hate crime laws into a single piece of legislation.

The Scottish government has already said that the bill will ensure that only people who intended to stir up hatred will ever be prosecuted

So, NO it doesn't include "insulting comments in people's own homes" or "conversations at the dinner table in your own home with friends and family" unless those comments are specifically intended to stir up hatred towards a protected group.

Useful LINKS:
BBC article about the HATE CRIME legislation
NEWS Item on the official ScotGov website regarding the New Legislation

cheers,
G

Thank you very much for making this clear, bro!

I was about to suggest a citizen campaign. Underage kids would be left out of it but adults. Dinner table example... Hate speech your hearts out! Fake hate speech, it does not have to be a real opinion. Wife says: "I hate gays" And then the husband calls the police due to that. Husband says: "I hope transgender people burn!" and the wife calls the police due to that. In EVERY household in Scotland that is willing to participate. And make the system, the machine, so full of these "crimes" that this insanity has to be abandoned.

But there is no need for that, and that is good!
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#13
(10-31-2020, 01:00 AM)NightskyeB4Dawn Wrote: You know life is funny. What I thought at the time was, this has to be the worse thing that could happen to me. It actually turned out to be one of the things that motivated me to be all that I could be. 

I have few regrets, though I have made numerous mistakes throughout my life. Each was a valuable lesson learned and some, like the one I shared, forged me by fire, strengthen me, making me who I am today.

I agree. When someone takes the life of another, regardless of the excuse they use. Dead is dead. There is no special place in American culture that changes murder into something else because it is labeled as a hate crime, or a crime of paasion. As far as I am concerned, hate or graveyard love, falls in the same category.

I like that attitude!

I've had bad things happen to me, but I consider all of them to be "learning experiences" rather than calamities.

Life itself is only about 10% the things that happen to us - the other 90%, and what makes it exhilarating and worth getting up every morning, is how we react to those things.

.
“There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.” ― Ernest Hemingway

ATTN Jihiadis:

.تكلم محمد في سبيل الله. ليس انت. ليس انت

Takalam Muhamad fi sabil Allh. Lays anta. Lays anta.= Mohammed spoke for Allah. Not you. Not you.


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#14
(10-30-2020, 05:58 PM)NightskyeB4Dawn Wrote:
(10-30-2020, 05:34 PM)Wallfire Wrote: So Gordi, whats this all about

Quote:[Image: humza-yousaf.jpg]Humza Yousaf. Photo: The Scottish Government, OGL v1.0

According to Scottish Justice Minister Humza Yousaf, the bill criminalises "promoting hatred" against "protected groups", which includes insulting comments in people's own homes.

Then Yousaf was questioned by the Scottish Parliament's Justice Committee on Tuesday assured the minister that the bill will protect the "right to be offensive." At the same time, anyone who "promotes hatred" towards others based on religion, age, disability, sexual orientation, transidentity or "variations in sexual characteristics" will be prosecuted.

This includes conversations at the dinner table in your own home with friends and family. As an example, Yousaf gave hatred towards Muslims, which he questions should be justified just because it is done at home.


READ ALSO: New proposed laws against 'hatred' in Scotland meet opposition among cultural figures
The scope of the bill's so-called hate speech is broad and would criminalize anyone who acts in a "threatening, abusive or insulting manner" against any of the protecting groups.
Exactly how to ensure that the law is complied with in the Scottish homes was not something Yousaf went into. As the law is drafted, however, no specific victim is required for the insult, only proof that the perpetrator was motivated by "malice" and a report of "a source" may be sufficient to secure a verdict.
link

Quickest way to fertilize hatred. 

Anyone that has ever raised a child, knows that nothing generates animosity as quickly as telling one child that they have bend to the will of another child to accomplish unrealistic expectations. 

Tell a child, "Tommy get off that swing and let this little one swing for a while, he wants the swing, give him the swing or you won't get ice cream after dinner". Guaranteed that Tommy is going to hate the kid he just met, and will likely remove him the minute your back is turned.

You can't force people to like each other. It would be wonderful if people really treated others the way they want to be treated, but you will rarely find that. So punishing people for saying things that others may find hateful or offensive, just adds fuel to the fire.
Dont you find it strange that the Justice minster belongs to the biggest protected group, and that the same group is demanding world wide protection to a level that we all bow down to them or lose our heads. Any law that snoops on what you say at home or in your own bed is a massive danger sign and for sure if that law exists the government at some point will use it to control the people. Its just a small step to the next level that everything that is said in your home will be recorded.
Scotland is in great danger and its not from London
WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH, THE EU IS FATHER AND MOTHER / FEAR NOT DEATH, BUT FEAR THE WAY YOU WILL DIE
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#15
Quote:is there such a thing as a "love crime"

"crimes of passion" are a thing in the, eh, Romance countries.

Cheers
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Location: The lost world, Elsewhen
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#16
(10-31-2020, 08:42 AM)F2d5thCav Wrote:
Quote:is there such a thing as a "love crime"

"crimes of passion" are a thing in the, eh, Romance countries.

Cheers

I think the French have that in the law
WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH, THE EU IS FATHER AND MOTHER / FEAR NOT DEATH, BUT FEAR THE WAY YOU WILL DIE
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#17
(10-31-2020, 12:52 AM)Ninurta Wrote: There is that word "if" - closely allied to "unless".

Doesn't that then devolve to the issue of how "hatred", "violence", and "incite" are interpreted? Not to mention the potential of policing folks in their own homes.

I know people who would categorize "insult" as "violence", for example. That's been a going thing here in The Colonies - folks interpreting insult, or speech in general, as "microagression", and then extending that to making mere speech a violent act.

I can see this legislation going down that route without appropriate safeguards in place, and I did not find comfort that those safeguards would be put in place on the government website - just vague pronouncements of "actions or behaviors", which themselves can be interpreted, or misinterpreted as the case may be, to be "violence".

I'm not sure I want to exist in a world where Scotsmen are barred from offering insult when insult is warranted! I just do not believe "insult" or even "hate speech" should be classified as criminal until it leaves a visible mark. Wounded pride is not cause for criminal action.

What is said in my house is none of the government's concern, no "ifs", "ands", unlesses", or "but's" about it. If folks don't want to be insulted or "hate thoughted" in my house, and they feel that's a possibility, then they might do well to stay out of my house, problem solved.

.

I agree.
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#18
(10-31-2020, 12:52 AM)Ninurta Wrote: I know people who would categorize "insult" as "violence", for example.

Here is one, reporting for duty!

There are three types of violence. Physical, mental, and spiritual.

An insult is mental violence.
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#19
(10-31-2020, 09:41 AM)Finspiracy Wrote:
(10-31-2020, 12:52 AM)Ninurta Wrote: I know people who would categorize "insult" as "violence", for example.

Here is one, reporting for duty!

There are three types of violence. Physical, mental, and spiritual.

An insult is mental violence.

The problem here is how does one define an insult, everything that is said is an insult to some one some where in the world
WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH, THE EU IS FATHER AND MOTHER / FEAR NOT DEATH, BUT FEAR THE WAY YOU WILL DIE
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