Russia, NATO, and Idiots

[Ninurta]

What I heard was that Germany told Estonia they couldn't send ex-Soviet 122-mm howitzers to Ukraine because those pieces once belonged to the East German Army.

That's probably right. I frequently get garbled messages. I'm still missing the crucial bit about how former ownership gives one a say in current disposition. For example, why can't the Spanish King call up Ron Desantis in Florida and tell him how it's gonna be, because Florida was once a colony of the Spanish Crown?

But we can for damned sure beef up the NATO presence in the -NATO- countries in that part of Europe.  No sense in projecting weakness there.  Let Putin bitch about that because he'll find some reason to bitch anyhow.  And we have to be part of it, to motivate the other NATO powers to join in.

Yeah, so long as we are going to insist on keeping NATO on life support, we have to live up to the treaty terms, including buttressing the forces in NATO countries. It's a mutual defense pact, so we need to keep enough edge to defend any member nations. I'm not opposed to selling the Ukraine weapons - what they do with those weapons is their own business. I just draw the line at getting directly involved in someone else's affairs that ain't none of our business.

I disagree again about 'poking the bear'.  There is no peaceful way to approach a situation like this.  There is no sense in starting World War 3 over Ukraine, but a lot of calling out has to take place, else everyone not in Europe will think "well, Putin must be correct because the West is not throwing fits".

Well I have a peaceful way of handling it, which is to turn my back and walk away. That comes from my isolationist mindset, though. See, I think part of my problem here is that I am at a loss to discover a reason to care what the rest of the world does or does not think about Putin. I'm good with letting them figure it out on their own, and think whatever they want to think. Their opinion is no reason for me to bruise my own knuckles up.

We're not discussing a bush war in some remote area here.  This will be the first war in Europe since the Kosovo operations, and the first major war in Europe since 1945.  Putin really is moving into a new dimension with his impending invasion.  All because his bosses cocked things up 30+ years ago.

No doubt about that. I'm good with posting troops at the Fulda Gap again, and along the Danube reaches, since those are NATO nations, and therefore NATO business. I'm just opposed to getting in a pissing match with Russia over places that are not NATO business, but which have been Russian business for quite a long while now. We in the US are no longer able to project the power we once were, because, BidenHarris. Pretending we can and failing is only going to lead to more heartache, maybe heartache of the incandescent fireball variety. Now, I don't think that Russia would really nuke us - they had 60 years or so to do that, and never did - but on the other hand there is no telling what lunatics will do when backed into a corner.

It would be ironic if China somehow slips him a surprise after making friendly faces with him.  I wonder if Moscow went with 'verbal assurances' in the case of agreements with China ... 

Cheers

I think China will play nice at least until they get the missile shipments Russia promised them, then diverted to India. Probably longer than that, because the Ukraine situation is drawing attention away from the Taiwan situation, and on top of that, China would much rather see the US have trouble on two fronts than have trouble on two fronts themselves instead.

So, yeah, I think China will just play nice with Russia, and pop some popcorn to watch the show, occasionally throwing kernels of it down Taiwan's blouse and giggling.

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[Kenzo]

@"Ninurta" 

Putin may be a danger to Ukraine, but he's no danger to the US, unless we keep poking that bear with a pointy stick. There is no sign we are going to stop anytime soon. We'll eventually get him hemmed up in a corner, and from there the only way out he has is through us.

I don't agree with the 'stick poking' notion.  That gets back to the 'Ukraine as Russia's colony' viewpoint.

Arguably, the only people who may have 'poked a stick' was the government of Georgia a few years ago.  And they got hit hard for that.

But, going further back.

The situation that Russia is in today is 100% the doing of RUSSIANS while they ran the Soviet Union.  Their economy was run like crap and the management of non-Russian peoples led everyone who was part of the USSR to flee if they could so.  It was no accident that not only Ukraine, but Belarus as well, fled that 'marriage'.

We should bear in mind NONE of that was the doing of the USA or NATO.  Those other people wanted to govern themselves, and this happened while the West was still trying to figure out what was really happening east of the former Iron Curtain.

Oh, Putin's government resents the position of Russia today?  Well, maybe they should line themselves against a wall and tell the execution squad to open fire, because that is where the responsibility lies.  Not USA.  Not NATO.  Russian cock-ups from start to finish.  But NOW -- thirty years later --, the Russian government wants to say 'let's go back to 1985 and start over'.  Yeah ... right.

The propaganda is rich; such as suggesting that NATO 'misled' them about other countries joining NATO.  Two key points on this.  First, those other countries were SOVERIGN POWERS.  As such, they get to choose their foreign and domestic policies without reference to Moscow.  The other point that should be brought out is the rank absurdity of the contention of the Russian government that NATO "verbally promised" them something.  I mean, GTFO.  Let's try to go to the bank and open an account (that is, a formal relationship with the bank) on the basis of verbal agreement only.  We'd get laughed out of the building.  And relations between sovereign powers?  We can bet everything we have that agreements that mean anything at all are always in writing, and -very- tightly written at that.  There are no 'verbal understandings' among powers that contended for the control of an entire continent over a span of 45 years.

So, the only people really 'poking the bear' have been the incompetents running things in Moscow since at least the Cold War.

Ukraine's military forces won't mount any invasions of Russia.  No, the opposite has already occurred and will shortly get much worse.  And the responsibility for this situation suddenly becoming a crisis is 100% on Moscow.

How long has Ukraine been an independent power?  And NOW, SUDDENLY, this is an existential crisis for Putin's government?  Horse-sh**.  Nothing but an excuse for a Russian-prompted war because the people in Moscow don't have a clue of what to do with Russia's potential.  They are nothing but a reborn Weimar Republic, but this time, armed with nuclear weapons.

DANGER, WILL ROBINSON.

Cheers

In case on Russia , it' s difficult to figure out who is really in charge there.....i think Putin is just a front, a face and puppet. This ,not knowing who are pulling the strings makes them even more  unpredictable.  But same is with Biden and many more.....they all work for their handlers. The real power stays in the background, it is modus operandi . 

The puppet handlers might decide all next , what wil, happen in Ukraine or not happen.

Putin was  odd choise from day one , to be leader as ex KGB officer,  someone installed him to position.

[F2d5thCav]

@"Kenzo" 

I've wondered about that.

His government is a kleptocratic oligarchy.  The question is how is power distributed among the oligarchs.  I tend to think Putin's voice is the most important, but it is reasonable to wonder how much pressure the other oligarchs may be putting on him to adopt various courses of action.

This is a key reason why any wealth those people have in Western countries should initially be frozen and, later, perhaps outright seized.  We may have to watch this brutal sh**-show, but for mafia types, the best response by far is to hit them in their wallets.

Cheers

[Kenzo]

@"Kenzo" 

I've wondered about that.

His government is a kleptocratic oligarchy.  The question is how is power distributed among the oligarchs.  I tend to think Putin's voice is the most important, but it is reasonable to wonder how much pressure the other oligarchs may be putting on him to adopt various courses of action.

This is a key reason why any wealth those people have in Western countries should initially be frozen and, later, perhaps outright seized.  We may have to watch this brutal sh**-show, but for mafia types, the best response by far is to hit them in their wallets.

Cheers

Yes they should really frozen money or even seize the oligarchs money in West with really much bigger scale.  But there may be secret deals between West and East that  dont allow such in big scale. 

The super rich has business things going on both side....i think that level is something we useless eaters dont much see or hear, it' s the money trail out there , like playing monopoly game but bigger scale.

[Ninurta]

Meanwhile, in the South China sea while all eyes are on the Ukraine...




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