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7 to 8 foot tall with a double row of teeth ?
#1
This video represents more of a historical view of Giants and the where and when the skeletal remains were found coupled with the historical documents to back up the claims. Many of us today would be a giant to those who were living in the 17th and 18th century as most men were barely 5'4" as seen by going on any old sailing ship below decks.

The double row of teeth always in my mind added a bit of spook factor to the story but according to the video, "Nope" the teeth were the real deal.
#2
I recall stories of 8 to 8 1/2 foot tall giants with double rows of teeth found in Ohio, West Virginia (Moundsville was one location) and western Pennsylvania.

While it's true that they believe Denisovans came from Hedelbergensis, they also believe the Neanderthals came from Heidelbergensis, and Modern humans from either Heidelbergensis or their immediate ancestors.

The Shawnee had legends of giants with red hair in Kentucky, but I never heard how many teeth they had. The Shawnee called them "Azgens", and claim to have eradicated them.

I've read just about everything that John Smith and Strachey wrote from the colonization of Virginia, and am familiar with all 4 of the accounts of the de Soto expedition, but don't recall anything about giants as the first speaker claimed. I'll have to dig deeper.
Diogenes was eating bread and lentils for supper. He was seen by the philosopher Aristippus, who lived comfortably by flattering the king.

Said Aristippus, ‘If you would learn to be subservient to the king you would not have to live on lentils.’ Said Diogenes, ‘Learn to live on lentils and you will not have to be subservient to the king.’


#3
Awesomeness!!!

I loved that show with the stone mason brothers. They were always looking for this.
#4
A friend of mine was related to "Saginaw Joe".


Quote:Researcher D. Laurence Rogers and Juliana L'Heureux' suggested a connection between Paul Bunyan and the French-Canadian lumberjack Fabian Fournier. From 1865 to 1875, Fournier worked for the H. M. Loud Company near Grayling, Michigan.

    Born in Quebec around 1845, Fournier went to Michigan after the Civil War. He was a large, strong man who was good with a double-bit axe. Fournier was said to be six feet tall and had large, powerful hands. Fournier was a true Michigan legend himself known by the nickname Saginaw Joe. He was large in stature and known to be an outstanding lumberjack. He also was said to have two sets of teeth, and was a tough guy willing to pick a fight. He eventually died in 1875 after a bar fight in Bay City Michigan.

Those French Canadians were always mixing it up with the natives back in the day. Perhaps Saginaw Joe had some of those giant genes in his blood line. My friend had normal teeth by the way.
#5
Once A Rogue, Always A Rogue!
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#6
(08-10-2021, 10:30 AM)Ninurta Wrote: ...I've read just about everything that John Smith and Strachey wrote from the colonization of Virginia, and am familiar with
all 4 of the accounts of the de Soto expedition, but don't recall anything about giants as the first speaker claimed.
I'll have to dig deeper.

Please recount her what you find... In fact, a wider summary of what you already know would be interesting too.
minusculethumbsup
Edith Head Gives Good Wardrobe. 
#7
(11-10-2021, 01:00 PM)BIAD Wrote:
(08-10-2021, 10:30 AM)Ninurta Wrote: ...I've read just about everything that John Smith and Strachey wrote from the colonization of Virginia, and am familiar with
all 4 of the accounts of the de Soto expedition, but don't recall anything about giants as the first speaker claimed.
I'll have to dig deeper.

Please recount her what you find... In fact, a wider summary of what you already know would be interesting too.
minusculethumbsup

Not much to tell, really. I don't know much about giants, just heard stories of finds in WV, Ohio, and western PA because of where I grew up. I recall hearing stories of the Azgens in Kentucky, but never knew they were giants until I asked an old Shawnee about the Azgens that were wiped out in Kentucky, and he responded with "do you mean the red-hared giants?" There are tales of red-haired mummies having been found in burial caves in Kentucky, but no mention of their stature that I can recall.

We have ancient burial caves here in this area too, from before the time the whites came, but I've never heard anything of "giants" coming out of them.

I also recall that when I was a kid in Ohio, another kid once told me that he found some skulls in a cave with heavy brow ridges like a Neanderthal, but I just chalked that up to kids' stories.

I found no mention of giants in Smith, Strachey, or DeSoto. One thing I do know is that, as @"727Sky" mentioned, when the first Europeans came to these shores, the average European was short by modern standards, around 5' 4" to 5' 6" tall, and the natives were, on average, 6 feet tall, closer to modern standards. Because of that height differential, it's plausible that Europeans viewed natives as "giants" when they first came here.

Because the Indians were so tall, I would guess that anything THEY classified as "giant" would have to have been 7 feet tall or more. My son is 6 1/2 feet tall, so he's getting into that range...

.
Diogenes was eating bread and lentils for supper. He was seen by the philosopher Aristippus, who lived comfortably by flattering the king.

Said Aristippus, ‘If you would learn to be subservient to the king you would not have to live on lentils.’ Said Diogenes, ‘Learn to live on lentils and you will not have to be subservient to the king.’


#8
Here's a link to a short article on the giants.

Ancient Indian Giants


Quote:A modern myth has been circulating about a prehistoric tribe of gigantic, fair skinned, red haired Native Americans. It is claimed these giants were from an ancient tribe that predates the historical tribes. They are said to have been eight plus feet tall and extremely aggressive cannibals. Often this myth has the giants driven off by normal sized natives when they moved into their historic tribal lands or that they hunted them to extinction simply in order to survive.
#9
@"Ninurta" 

I vaguely recall from the journals of Lewis and Clark that they ran into natives who told about "little people" who lived on a particular hill.  The expedition walked the hill but did not find anything unusual.

Serpent Mound is up in Shawnee country.  I wonder if the Shawnees knew who made that.

Cheers
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Location: The lost world, Elsewhen
#10
@"BIAD" 

There are extensive cave formations in Kentucky (Mammoth Cave is one).  The extent is so vast that I doubt they have been fully explored.

Cheers
[Image: 14sigsepia.jpg]

Location: The lost world, Elsewhen
#11
(11-11-2021, 03:00 PM)Michigan Swamp Buck Wrote: Here's a link to a short article on the giants.

Ancient Indian Giants


Quote:A modern myth has been circulating about a prehistoric tribe of gigantic, fair skinned, red haired Native Americans. It is claimed these giants were from an ancient tribe that predates the historical tribes. They are said to have been eight plus feet tall and extremely aggressive cannibals. Often this myth has the giants driven off by normal sized natives when they moved into their historic tribal lands or that they hunted them to extinction simply in order to survive.

I don't know how "modern" the story of the Azgens is. It goes back at east 30 years, which is when I first heard it, and that old Shawnee was an old man back then, telling it from stories he had heard in his youth, from other old men...

The Lovelock Cave story of the Paiutes is one I heard much more recently, but the Paiutes may believe it to be a lot older, given similar circumstances of old men telling tales.

In the article, the phrase "Matchi Manitou" is similar to the Shawnee phrase "Mot-shee Monteo", which means "bad spirit" or "evil spirit", Motshee being "bad, negative, evil" and moneto meaning "spirit" or "power". It's an old phrase from an Algonquian root language that carried forward into the languages that came from it in various similar forms. Te Shawneee Mot-shee Moneto came to be associated with the Christian Devil after interactions commenced with European missionaries. Oddly, "moneto" also means "snake", as snakes were percieved as creatures of power. For example, Black Snake's name in Shawnee was "Shi-Moneto". "Big Snake" or "Black Snake" when translated to English. Shawnees called Black Snakes "the big snake" because of their length. A direct translation from English to Shawnee of "Black Snake" would have been "Makatewa Moneto".

I've always found the association of the word "moneto" with both "snake" and "spirit power" to be interesting, in light of the biblical story of the fall of man being precipitated by the devil in the guise of a serpent.

Just as the article mentions about the perceived growth of the Lovelock Cave story, The first I heard of the Azgens (from a white guy) did not mention a giant stature, just that another tribe in KY had been wiped out by the Shawnee, but that their spirits would never allow Shawnee settlement in KY after their genocide. They would only allow hunting there when "Shawnee women and children were starving", but never settlement. I only know of a single attempt by the Shawnee to settle KY, a village named "Eskippakithiki" near the Blue Licks, It only lasted 20 years or so before it was abandoned.

It was not until I asked the old Shawnee man about the story that I head of the association of them with "giants".

Regarding the Smithsonian report of a large skeleton being found in Kanawha County, I recall a story from that area from 1774, during Lord Dunmore's War. Col. Fleming was marching his troops along the Kanawha River, towards Point Pleasant, and Indian scouts were traveling alongside them, keeping track of their progress. One evening the army scouts, keeping track of the Indians keeping track of them, reported to him the discovery of "an Indian tract a remarkable 14 1/2 inches long", which was so remarkable that he recorded it in his orderly book for that day. I always took it to be a Bigfoot track, but the people at the time, having Indians on the brain (and all around them in the woods) reported it as the track of an impressively large Indian.

A "giant", I suppose.

.
Diogenes was eating bread and lentils for supper. He was seen by the philosopher Aristippus, who lived comfortably by flattering the king.

Said Aristippus, ‘If you would learn to be subservient to the king you would not have to live on lentils.’ Said Diogenes, ‘Learn to live on lentils and you will not have to be subservient to the king.’


#12
(11-11-2021, 06:21 PM)F2d5thCav Wrote: @"Ninurta" 

I vaguely recall from the journals of Lewis and Clark that they ran into natives who told about "little people" who lived on a particular hill.  The expedition walked the hill but did not find anything unusual.

Serpent Mound is up in Shawnee country.  I wonder if the Shawnees knew who made that.

Cheers

I doubt it. The Serpent Mound was made before the time of the Shawnee in Ohio. They originally came from north of the great lakes, but were a wandering tribe that wandered all over the place, often being employed as "border guards" by other tribes. Both the Suwannee and Savannah rivers in the south are named for them, from the time they were there as border guards for a local tribe.

Black Hoof was born near Pensacola, Florida, in the panhandle on the Gulf of Mexico. It was after his birth that his faction of the tribe moved north to Ohio during a gathering of Shawnee in the mid 1600's to early 1700's. It was after that time that the Ohio County became known as Shawnee territory.

Several Mound Builder cultures had previously occupied that area, notably the Fort Ancient Culture that encompassed southern Ohio, northeastern Kentucky, southwestern West Virginia, and into parts of southwestern Virginia along the Tug Fork of Big Sandy River and it's tributaries. Some folks claim that the Shawnee came from the Fort Ancient Culture, but I have my doubts given their roaming nature.

But the Shawnee appear to have been an amalgam of originally separate tribes, so it's possible that some of them had ancestry from the Fort Ancient people. For example, the "Chisca" (some report them as "Yuchi") Indians from this area and Upper East Tennessee, the same ones that whooped the crap out of Spanish invaders, moved westward along the Tennessee River and eventually linked to a group of Shawnee living downstream, and merged with them. LaSalle reported that merge around 1680, and eventually it became a complete merge with the Chisca losing their original identity and becoming the Thawegila Sept of the Shawnee nation, fully Shawnee at that point, no longer Chisca. The Shawnee were made up of 5 "septs", all five originally believed to have been separate tribes.

Regarding the Azgens, a few people have tried to tie them into "The Lost Colony of Roanoke" on the basis of one of those colonists having borne the name of "Richard Azgen", but I doubt that, too, because for one thing, I don't believe they could have possibly made it that far west through all those hostile natives, and two, I've never been able to find the name Richard Azgen in any of the lists of those colonists.

I'm still down with "there were giants in those days in Kentucky". The Fort Ancient culture was a mound builder culture, and the reports of double toothed giant skeletons in the eastern US are almost always associated with the Mound Builders, and found in their burial mounds. Were the Fort Ancients in Kentucky a race of tall or "giant" people, and the same as the Azggens that were exterminated? No way to tell for sure now.

.
Diogenes was eating bread and lentils for supper. He was seen by the philosopher Aristippus, who lived comfortably by flattering the king.

Said Aristippus, ‘If you would learn to be subservient to the king you would not have to live on lentils.’ Said Diogenes, ‘Learn to live on lentils and you will not have to be subservient to the king.’


#13
(11-11-2021, 06:23 PM)F2d5thCav Wrote: @"BIAD" 

There are extensive cave formations in Kentucky (Mammoth Cave is one).  The extent is so vast that I doubt they have been fully explored.

Cheers

This whole area was once at the bottom of a shallow sea, and the buildup of carbonates from that created a huge limestone substrate of bedrock. Once it was raised from the bed of that sea to dry land, the action of water over millions of years hollowed out that limestone into a warren of caves honeycombing the entire area, what is known geologically as a "karst" terrain. There are most definitely caves here that have never been fully explored. I know of places one can travel for miles underground and never see daylight, and still never know where that cave ends.

"Burial Caves" are still occasionally newly discovered here, but it's illegal to poke around in them and explore them for anyone but archaeologists.

.
Diogenes was eating bread and lentils for supper. He was seen by the philosopher Aristippus, who lived comfortably by flattering the king.

Said Aristippus, ‘If you would learn to be subservient to the king you would not have to live on lentils.’ Said Diogenes, ‘Learn to live on lentils and you will not have to be subservient to the king.’


#14
New book about giant`s in ancient Britain 


The Giants of Stonehenge and Ancient Britain
#15
Giants were real.
The denial by the Smithsonian and other academic's should be enough proof.
Once A Rogue, Always A Rogue!
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