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Full Version: Halloween vs. Samhain - It's All a Matter of Timing
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In the modern day, the old Celtic observation of Samhain has been conflated to coincide with the Christian holiday of Halloween. That was by design, and intentional merging of formerly very separate holidays in very different religions. When Christianity started invading the hinterlands, it was a conscious decision on their part to co-opt certain "pagan" holidays in order to facilitate the transition of said pagans from their original religions to Christianity.

Other holidays so co-opted include Yule into Christmas, and Ostara into Easter... but those are not the subject of this thread.

Nowadays, the Christian holiday of Halloween is invariably celebrated on 31 October, even by so-called "neo-pagans", who are actually celebrating a Christian holiday and simply re-labeling it as "Samhain". They fell for the trap. But it was not always so.

The old European holy-days were largely based upon agricultural cycles and seasons. There were 4 quarterly celebrations marking agricultural transitions at the winter solstice (shortest day of the year), the spring equinox (equal day and night length leading into longer days and warmer temperatures in the northern hemisphere), the summer solstice (longest day of the year), and the autumnal equinox (equal day-night length leading into shorter days and lower temperatures in the northern hemisphere). In addition to these quarterly holidays, there were a further 4 "cross-quarter" observations marking the half way point between the quarterly celebrations. Samhain of the Celts was one of these cross-quarter observations, half way between the autumnal equinox and the winter solstice.

This means that it falls on a different day every year, because agricultural cycles do not follow set calendar cycles, since a year has roughly 365 1/4 days instead of a regular 360 days that is easily divisible. The addition of "leap years" has somewhat mitigated that situation, but not entirely.

Now the Christians moving into the pagan areas and proselytizing therein already had a holiday celebrating "saints", called All Hallows Day, a purely Christian holiday celebrated on 1 November. In order to incorporate pagan observations and co-opt them, they instituted yet another holiday the evening before All hallows Day and called it "All hallows Eve" (much the same concept as Christmas Eve) or "Hallow'een" and related that to the pagan Samhain observation, just to make it easier for pagans to become Christianized.

This year, the autumnal equinox fell on 22 September:

Quote:When Is the Autumnal Equinox? The fall equinox arrives on Thursday, September 22, 2022, at 9:04 P.M. EDT in the Northern Hemisphere. The equinox occurs at the same moment worldwide.

... and the winter solstice (Yule) is on 21 December:

Quote:When Is the First Day of Winter? The first day of winter in the Northern Hemisphere is marked by the winter solstice, which occurs on Wednesday, December 21, 2022, at 4:48 P.M. EST. For the northern half of Earth (the Northern Hemisphere), the winter solstice occurs annually on December 21 or 22.

... a span of 90 days. the half way point between the two, 45 days, falls by my calculation at sundown on the evening of 6 November, a week AFTER All Hallows Day, not the night  before it, and will end at sundown on 7 November.

This has significant ramifications for actual pagans, as opposed to the neo-pagan variety. Neo-pagans will celebrate their Christian holiday and go merrily along about their business thereafter sublimely unaware that they are paying homage to their conquerors. Actual pagans will know that the hi-jinks associated with Samhain, the thinning of the veil between realms, ghostly visits, and all that, will fall on a different day entirely. Without that knowledge, they would be unprepared for unusual occurrences around that time, and in the old days pagans REALLY wanted to be prepared - it was not a matter of cute kids shaking them down for candy, it was a matter of ghostly visits that could turn ugly if not properly observed by them.

Now you know. Do with it what thou wilt.

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Yet those flying monstrosities that torment Boy In A Dress by drumming on his shed roof always appear
on the night of 31st October. Then when he rushes out, with claws and flailing hair, BIAD fights them off
as they tug at his dress and make rude sounds at him.

Last year, they brought a broomstick.
tinysure
(10-09-2022, 09:07 PM)BIAD Wrote: [ -> ]Yet those flying monstrosities that torment Boy In A Dress by drumming on his shed roof always appear
on the night of 31st October. Then when he rushes out, with claws and flailing hair, BIAD fights them off
as they tug at his dress and make rude sounds at him.

Last year, they brought a broomstick.
tinysure

Clearly those must be christian demons, bound to christian observation days!

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(10-09-2022, 09:07 PM)BIAD Wrote: [ -> ]Yet those flying monstrosities that torment Boy In A Dress by drumming on his shed roof always appear
on the night of 31st October. Then when he rushes out, with claws and flailing hair, BIAD fights them off
as they tug at his dress and make rude sounds at him.

Last year, they brought a broomstick.
tinysure

Well BIAD is still a hell of a lot better off than us folks in my area of Florida.

The monsters flying about around here attack in squadrons large enough to blacken the sky, and they want blood. Your blood.

Those damn mosquitoes attack hair, shin, even sole, if they can reach it.
(10-09-2022, 09:38 PM)Ninurta Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-09-2022, 09:07 PM)BIAD Wrote: [ -> ]Yet those flying monstrosities that torment Boy In A Dress by drumming on his shed roof always appear
on the night of 31st October. Then when he rushes out, with claws and flailing hair, BIAD fights them off
as they tug at his dress and make rude sounds at him.

Last year, they brought a broomstick.
tinysure

Clearly those must be christian demons, bound to christian observation days!

I concur, they looked like something from a Ray Harryhausen movie.
tinybiggrin
Good info @"Ninurta".

I knew that the Christians had incorporated most Pagan holidays but I always just assumed the days were the same. It makes sense that the original Pagan holidays would coincide with equinox/solstice.
(10-09-2022, 09:47 PM)VioletDove Wrote: [ -> ]Good info @"Ninurta".

I knew that the Christians had incorporated most Pagan holidays but I always just assumed the days were the same. It makes sense that the original Pagan holidays would coincide with equinox/solstice.

It's easier to align dates and say "Eh. that's a coincidence, I have a tale where..."
tinywondering
(10-09-2022, 09:41 PM)BIAD Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-09-2022, 09:38 PM)Ninurta Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-09-2022, 09:07 PM)BIAD Wrote: [ -> ]Yet those flying monstrosities that torment Boy In A Dress by drumming on his shed roof always appear
on the night of 31st October. Then when he rushes out, with claws and flailing hair, BIAD fights them off
as they tug at his dress and make rude sounds at him.

Last year, they brought a broomstick.
tinysure

Clearly those must be christian demons, bound to christian observation days!

I concur, they looked like something from a Ray Harryhausen movie.
tinybiggrin



Clearly, BIAD needs a stalwart band of Greek mercenaries to rid him of this plague...




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Obligatory addons...

Pagan Invasion, Vol 1 Halloween Trick or Treat




Pagan Origins of Halloween



Ukraine Azov pagan ritual/worship - blood offering to god Perun. (2017)



Trotskyist Mikhail Nikolayevich Tukhachevsky aka 'Red Napoleon' also worshipped Perun according to French journalist Remy Roure.
So, regardless of the exact date and time, what did the original pagans actually celebrate on Samhain and what are the similarities between Samhain and Halloween? I assume that All Hallows Eve had something in common with the original pagan holiday in order to get them to go with the Christian program.
(10-10-2022, 06:27 PM)Michigan Swamp Buck Wrote: [ -> ]So, regardless of the exact date and time, what did the original pagans actually celebrate on Samhain and what are the similarities between Samhain and Halloween? I assume that All Hallows Eve had something in common with the original pagan holiday in order to get them to go with the Christian program.

Thy believed it was a time of liminality, a time when the veil between worlds thinned enough that it could be crossed - you could go to the Otherworld, but the usual direction of travel was from there to here - a time when the dead came back to visit. Because of that, it was a time of feasting during which food would even be left out for the dead ancestors, to avoid pissing them off because they were left out of the celebrations.

To some, it was a time of fear, because they feared visits from ancestors who were pissed off because the living had not been doing right.

But the basics are that they believe it was a time window when the dead could return to once again walk the earth - albeit in spirit rather than bodily - which could be either a help or a hindrance depending on how one had conducted his own life over the past year.

It had nothing to do with demons, devils, or witches... the baggage that Christianity has tried to hang onto the day.

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(10-11-2022, 12:23 AM)Ninurta Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-10-2022, 06:27 PM)Michigan Swamp Buck Wrote: [ -> ]So, regardless of the exact date and time, what did the original pagans actually celebrate on Samhain and what are the similarities between Samhain and Halloween? I assume that All Hallows Eve had something in common with the original pagan holiday in order to get them to go with the Christian program.

Thy believed it was a time of liminality, a time when the veil between worlds thinned enough that it could be crossed - you could go to the Otherworld, but the usual direction of travel was from there to here - a time when the dead came back to visit. Because of that, it was a time of feasting during which food would even be left out for the dead ancestors, to avoid pissing them off because they were left out of the celebrations.

To some, it was a time of fear, because they feared visits from ancestors who were pissed off because the living had not been doing right.

But the basics are that they believe it was a time window when the dead could return to once again walk the earth - albeit in spirit rather than bodily - which could be either a help or a hindrance depending on how one had conducted his own life over the past year.

It had nothing to do with demons, devils, or witches... the baggage that Christianity has tried to hang onto the day.

.

Similar to the Day of the Dead in Mexico I imagine. Still, how is the Christian version similar? I never looked into Halloween, I thought it was a Catholic deal with Saints and all, so I didn't really give a shit. Thanks for the cool information at any rate.
(10-11-2022, 04:09 AM)Michigan Swamp Buck Wrote: [ -> ]Similar to the Day of the Dead in Mexico I imagine. Still, how is the Christian version similar? I never looked into Halloween, I thought it was a Catholic deal with Saints and all, so I didn't really give a shit. Thanks for the cool information at any rate.

Here is a video that explains some of the wonky early and medieval Christian beliefs about the dead, many of which are nowadays blamed on "pagans".

TRIGGER WARNING: there is some truly grotie shit in this video. Oh, those wacky Christians! I've seen and done a lot of questionable things, but there are lines in this video that even I wouldn't cross, not even in my scariest nightmares.




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