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Your Thoughts.
#21
(12-07-2021, 10:30 AM)Bally002 Wrote: Going out on a limb here from the religious perspective.  Being RC and having gone through the nuns, brothers and priests.  I'm not a church goer but in answer to the original post, Jesus died on the cross to save us all, weel okay, but his death would be considered a suicide and he knew the outcome.  He had a choice if you believe that part of the bible.

So my take is he knew the pain and suffering he would have to go through and his ultimate death.  It is written he could have saved himself at anytime.  But he chose death by Crucifixion.  Is that a form of suicide?

Later consider those that chose death in his name. eg:  The crusaders.  Willing to die.  Is that suicide?

My thoughts,

Bally

And then there was Saul, I believe, who "fell upon his own sword". Apart from smarting and leaving a mark, that action probably resulted in a voluntary self termination. Did Saul go to hell for that? Or did he have bigger issues to send him to hell that overshadowed a mere suicide? OR, did he cash in his Believer's Get Out of Jail Free Card ™ and skate past the brimstone gates?

In the end, the decision belongs to God alone.

.
Diogenes was eating bread and lentils for supper. He was seen by the philosopher Aristippus, who lived comfortably by flattering the king.

Said Aristippus, ‘If you would learn to be subservient to the king you would not have to live on lentils.’ Said Diogenes, ‘Learn to live on lentils and you will not have to be subservient to the king.’


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#22
I want one!

I’ve avoided this thread because, well you know, stereotypes and all and the popular 41% statistic about trans folks and suicide but frankly, I’ve lived with suicide ideation as far back as I can remember as an attractive exit strategy. So much so that it is my sincere hope that I am able to die by my own hand rather than illness or accident with the fear being my brain rots from dementia or Alzheimer’s disenabling me from controlling my own destiny which is something that ranks pretty high on my list, obviously.

I’ve actually come close a couple of times and thought about it real hard more times than that. My junior year of high school (1971/72) when I was 16/17 was probably the most difficult, darkly depressed and desperate year of my life and ending it all seemed like the best and easiest option. I was full of anger, hate and rage and saw no way out of my situation and no possibility of ever having any sort of normal future plus finally starting a very late puberty at 15½ after I’d already begun living as a girl, I was absolutely aghast at what was happening to my otherwise androgynous body and just wanted to die. Fortunately, after years of counseling and therapy with absolutely clueless doctors, my folks found one that understood my transsexualism and started me on estrogen and explained to otherwise clueless me why I was the way I was. Up until then I just thought I was broken and defective so the hormones and a better self understanding of my situation and that there were other people like me gave me the strength and hope to go on and improved my outlook and attitude.

Then again around 21 things became so hard and seemingly hopeless that death loomed as an escape from my pain and heartbreak. I was frustrated at the hopelessness of not being able to obtain the surgery I’d always seen as necessary to fix what I considered a birth defect or grand cosmic mistake piled on top of what I saw as the loss of being a fulltime stay at home parent to another woman’s child I had raised as my own from birth for two years. I was a wreck and ended up living with my parents for a while with my mother figuratively talking me down from the ledge a couple times.

What kept me going was her noting that even though I couldn’t have my baby all of the time I would still have her part of the time and because we were so tightly bonded, what would my loss do to her young life and that thought helped me soldier on and not think solely of my own misfortunes. That thought alone and my responsibilities as a mother saved my life more than a couple times throughout other dark times I’ve been through and by the time I was 22, the needed surgery thing finally happened. By the time she was 11, “my daughter” was once again living under my roof with me fulltime until she moved out on her own at 18 and being a good parent that was there for her was important to me. (She’s 47 now and we’re still close – I talked to her yesterday and she came to visit last month)

The thought of ending it all is something that has been with me a very long time and even as recently as two years ago when my businesses collapsed and I lost everything and was facing homelessness, I had thought of and planned the least impactful way of doing it. There’s really only three people that would care and I discussed my feelings with all of them and to some degree, they were understanding and actually surprised I hadn’t taken myself out long ago. All of them know of my desire to have some degree of control over my final exit and having an option like the Sarco that doesn’t paint my walls with brain matter or leave someone to find my rotting corpse is rather appealing.

Here’s two articles I’ve read about this device and death with dignity.

Link: Here's Why I Invented A 'Death Machine' That Lets People Take Their Own Lives

Quote:A Sarco death is painless. There’s no suffocation, choking sensation or “air hunger” as the user breathes easily in a low-oxygen environment. The sensation is one of well-being and intoxication.”

Link: Controversial Assisted Suicide Pod Cleared for Use in Switzerland

Quote:The capsule is sitting on a piece of equipment that will flood the interior with nitrogen, rapidly reducing the oxygen level to 1 per cent from 21 per cent in about 30 seconds,” Nitschke told SwissInfo. “The person will feel a little disoriented and may feel slightly euphoric before they lose consciousness. Death takes place through hypoxia and hypocapnia, oxygen and carbon dioxide deprivation, respectively. There is no panic, no choking feeling.”

Nitschke added that death usually follows unconsciousness in such a setting after around five to ten minutes.

This might also be used as a more humane way of capital punishment?
Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
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#23
(12-07-2021, 09:50 PM)Ninurta Wrote:
(12-07-2021, 10:30 AM)Bally002 Wrote: Going out on a limb here from the religious perspective.  Being RC and having gone through the nuns, brothers and priests.  I'm not a church goer but in answer to the original post, Jesus died on the cross to save us all, weel okay, but his death would be considered a suicide and he knew the outcome.  He had a choice if you believe that part of the bible.

So my take is he knew the pain and suffering he would have to go through and his ultimate death.  It is written he could have saved himself at anytime.  But he chose death by Crucifixion.  Is that a form of suicide?

Later consider those that chose death in his name. eg:  The crusaders.  Willing to die.  Is that suicide?

My thoughts,

Bally

And then there was Saul, I believe, who "fell upon his own sword". Apart from smarting and leaving a mark, that action probably resulted in a voluntary self termination. Did Saul go to hell for that? Or did he have bigger issues to send him to hell that overshadowed a mere suicide? OR, did he cash in his Believer's Get Out of Jail Free Card ™ and skate past the brimstone gates?

In the end, the decision belongs to God alone.

.

1st Samuel is one of my favorite books of the old testement

He used his get out of jail free card, when the witch called what she thought would be a demon pretending to be Samuel, it was actually Samuel that showed up.  Samuel told him after dressing him down that after the battle tomorrow Saul and his sons would be in paradise with him.


Quote:1 Samuel 28


New American Standard Bible


Saul and the Spirit Medium
28 Now it came about in those days that the Philistines gathered their armed camps for war, to fight against Israel. And Achish said to David, “Know for certain that you will go out with me in the camp, you and your men.” 2 David said to Achish, “Very well, you will learn what your servant can do.” So Achish said to David, “Then I will assuredly make you [a]my bodyguard for [b]life!”
3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned him and buried him in Ramah, his own city. And Saul had removed the mediums and spiritists from the land. 4 So the Philistines assembled and came and camped in Shunem; and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they camped in Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the camp of the Philistines, he was afraid and his heart trembled greatly. 6 So Saul inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him, either in dreams, or by the Urim, or by the prophets. 7 Then Saul said to his servants, “Find for me a woman who is a medium, so that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a woman who is a medium at En-dor.”
8 Then Saul disguised himself by putting on different clothes, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said, “Consult the spirit for me, please, and bring up for me the one whom I shall [c]name for you.” 9 But the woman said to him, “Behold, you know what Saul has done, that he has eliminated the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why are you then setting a trap for my life, to bring about my death?” 10 So Saul swore an oath to her by the Lord, saying, “As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.” 11 Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” 12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!” 13 But the king said to her, “Do not be afraid; but what do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a [d]divine being coming up from the earth.” 14 He said to her, “[e]How does he appear?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” Then Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid [f]homage.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul replied, “I am very distressed, for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has abandoned me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or in dreams; therefore I have called you, so that you may let me know what I should do.” 16 Samuel said, “But why ask me, since the Lord has abandoned you and has become your enemy? 17 And the Lord has done [g]just as He spoke through me; for the Lord has torn the kingdom from your hand and given it to your neighbor, to David. 18 Just as you did not [h]obey the Lord and did not execute His fierce wrath on Amalek, so the Lord has done this thing to you this day. 19 Furthermore, the Lord will also hand Israel along with you over to the Philistines; so tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed, the Lord will hand the army of Israel over to the Philistines!”
20 Then Saul immediately fell full length to the ground and was very afraid because of Samuel’s words; there was no strength in him either, because he had eaten no [i]food all day and all night. 21 The woman came to Saul and saw that he was utterly horrified, and she said to him, “Behold, your servant has [j]obeyed you, and I have [k]taken my life in my hand and have listened to your words which you spoke to me. 22 So now you too, please listen to the voice of your servant, and let me serve you a piece of bread, and eat it, so that you will have strength when you go on your way.” 23 But he refused and said, “I will not eat.” However, his servants together with the woman urged him, and he listened to [l]them. So he got up from the ground and sat on the bed. 24 Now the woman had a fattened calf in the house, and she quickly slaughtered it; then she took flour, kneaded it and baked unleavened bread from it. 25 She then served it to Saul and his servants, and they ate. Then they got up and left that night.




Saul was anointed by God with the holy spirit, and Samuel told him he would be a changed man,

Quote:1 Samuel 10


New American Standard Bible


Saul among the Prophets
10 Then Samuel took the flask of oil, poured it on [a]Saul’s head, kissed him, and said, “Has the Lord not anointed you as ruler over His inheritance? 2 When you leave me today, then you will find two men close to Rachel’s tomb in the territory of Benjamin at Zelzah; and they will say to you, ‘The donkeys which you went to look for have been found. Now behold, your father has stopped talking about the donkeys and is anxious about you, saying, “What am I to do about my son?”’ 3 Then you will go on further from there, and you will come as far as the [b]oak of Tabor, and there three men going up to God at Bethel will meet you: one carrying three young goats, another carrying three loaves of bread, and another carrying a jug of wine. 4 And they will [c]greet you and give you two loaves of bread, which you will accept from their hand. 5 Afterward you will come to [d]the hill of God where the Philistine garrison is; and it shall be as soon as you have come there to the city, that you will meet a group of prophets coming down from the high place with harp, tambourine, flute, and a lyre in front of them, and they will be prophesying. 6 Then the Spirit of the Lord will rush upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be changed into a different man. 7 And it shall be when these signs come to you, do for yourself what [e]the occasion requires, because God is with you. 8 And you shall go down ahead of me to Gilgal; and behold, I will be coming down to you to offer burnt offerings and sacrifice peace offerings. You shall wait seven days until I come to you and inform you of what you should do.”


Over time the sinful part of him caused him to disobey God and it was down hill from there, this is like what many call a carnal Christian( those that believe but live as if they don't.) 

Here is pretty good site that explains it better than I can.

Will King Saul be in Heaven?
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#24
(12-08-2021, 04:20 AM)Freija Wrote: So much so that it is my sincere hope that I am able to die by my own hand rather than illness or accident with the fear being my brain rots from dementia or Alzheimer’s disenabling me from controlling my own destiny which is something that ranks pretty high on my list, obviously.

I saw a news story today about a new study out that indicates Viagra reduces Alzheimer's occurrences by 69%. One might choose to explore that route before the terminal one.


Quote:Here’s two articles I’ve read about this device and death with dignity.

Link: Here's Why I Invented A 'Death Machine' That Lets People Take Their Own Lives

Quote:A Sarco death is painless. There’s no suffocation, choking sensation or “air hunger” as the user breathes easily in a low-oxygen environment. The sensation is one of well-being and intoxication.”

Link: Controversial Assisted Suicide Pod Cleared for Use in Switzerland

Quote:The capsule is sitting on a piece of equipment that will flood the interior with nitrogen, rapidly reducing the oxygen level to 1 per cent from 21 per cent in about 30 seconds,” Nitschke told SwissInfo. “The person will feel a little disoriented and may feel slightly euphoric before they lose consciousness. Death takes place through hypoxia and hypocapnia, oxygen and carbon dioxide deprivation, respectively. There is no panic, no choking feeling.”

Nitschke added that death usually follows unconsciousness in such a setting after around five to ten minutes.

That;s a nice try, but they're not going to convince me that oxygen starvation doesn't result in gasping and clawing.

Quote:This might also be used as a more humane way of capital punishment?

I can't think of a good reason to make capital punishment humane. I don't know of any capital criminals that considered the humanity of the actions that got them there. If they had, they might not have ended up on death row.

.
Diogenes was eating bread and lentils for supper. He was seen by the philosopher Aristippus, who lived comfortably by flattering the king.

Said Aristippus, ‘If you would learn to be subservient to the king you would not have to live on lentils.’ Said Diogenes, ‘Learn to live on lentils and you will not have to be subservient to the king.’


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#25
I'm sorta a bit surprised at this capital punishment by lethal injection.  I'm not too sure of the procedure but anaesthetic puts me to sleep immediately.  No pain.  If I died, I wouldn't know.  Like to go that way.

I have a procedure next week.  If I don't wake up I guess I'd never need worry.

Kind regards,

Bally.:)
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#26
(12-07-2021, 06:53 PM)NightskyeB4Dawn Wrote:
(12-07-2021, 10:30 AM)Bally002 Wrote: Going out on a limb here from the religious perspective.  Being RC and having gone through the nuns, brothers and priests.  I'm not a church goer but in answer to the original post, Jesus died on the cross to save us all, weel okay, but his death would be considered a suicide and he knew the outcome.  He had a choice if you believe that part of the bible.

So my take is he knew the pain and suffering he would have to go through and his ultimate death.  It is written he could have saved himself at anytime.  But he chose death by Crucifixion.  Is that a form of suicide?

Later consider those that chose death in his name. eg:  The crusaders.  Willing to die.  Is that suicide?

My thoughts,

Bally

That is a hard question to answer, with the possibility of many right answers.

Suicide is injuring yourself with the "intent" of causing death.

Personally I think death at hands of others, even if you knew death would be the result if you took a particular action, or failed to take an action, would not be true suicide.

Jesus died at the hands of others. He knew what the outcome would be for his actions, but carried at the request his Father had made of him. He could have said no. He chose to obey. He died for his obedience. He was risen from that death, and provided us with the chance to also secure eternal life.

Dying for a cause could be thought of as suicide, I like to think of it as dying for life, instead of dying for death.

Just my opinion. We all know what that is worth.    minusculebeercheers

Appreciate your answer and post.  Your opinion is valued.  I guess what I was alluding to was that if Jesus had the choice, would he have chosen the capsule option and was it necessary to die the way he did.  Then again it was a public display and his fore knowledge of his impending doom has me contemplating that this was a suicide to teach a lesson of forgiveness with regards the sinners.  Yes, he had the choice to live.  

So simply then make a statement and be remembered the modern version might be aligned to death by cop shooting.  This is miles away from the death of Jesus but I simply draw the parallel.   

Please feel free to offering your opinion further.  Loves you all at Rogue,

Bally:)
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#27
(12-08-2021, 10:45 AM)Bally002 Wrote: Appreciate your answer and post.  Your opinion is valued.  I guess what I was alluding to was that if Jesus had the choice, would he have chosen the capsule option and was it necessary to die the way he did.  Then again it was a public display and his fore knowledge of his impending doom has me contemplating that this was a suicide to teach a lesson of forgiveness with regards the sinners.  Yes, he had the choice to live.  

So simply then make a statement and be remembered the modern version might be aligned to death by cop shooting.  This is miles away from the death of Jesus but I simply draw the parallel.   

Please feel free to offering your opinion further.  Loves you all at Rogue,

Bally:)

Suicide by cop, and the likes, is putting yourself in a position, to delibarately, generate a resulting death. The goal was to injure yourself, with the prize being death.

If a person steps in front of a speeding vehicle to protect others from harm, some would see that as a suicide move. I would see it as a sacrifice.

One is a move with the sole purpose of ending one's own life. Without regard of how it may impact others.  

The other is a move with the purpose of preserving life, at the expense of your own life. With total regard of how it may impact others. 

Entering into a situation that is likely to assure death as an outcome, is suicidal, if death is the only goal.

If the preservation of life is the goal, then I can't see it as suicide.
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#28
Wow! Long thread. 

I am not sure why it takes such a contraption to do so. Seems like a long way to go. Maybe if someone is in a bad physical state, lot of pain, can barely control their body. 

On the spiritual side, I suppose it depends on what you believe. I was taught you are God's creation and you have no right to end that creation. However, if God created you with all your warts and flaws, to include mental/emotional/spiritual pain and/or instability, he/she would know what you are going through and would know the outcome before you were even conceived. Yet, here you are. Lot's of questions without answers I guess.

I have a strong Christian faith and am at peace with it. Still, I wonder where Cain and Able's wives came from. Seems like a big plot hole. 

Will the pod make sure you are jabbed against C19 before it kills you? I mean without that, you are on the southbound for sure.
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#29
To many people on their knees praying as the executioner draws the blade across their throats for me to have much fear of a god as man seems to be the one to fear. Religions have been responsible for untold thousands of deaths and wars, all in the name of some silent unseen sky fairy who has mankind write what the god supposedly wants us to believe. Key words being "man writes what is to be believed" and then the man claims his hand was guided by some supreme god.

The religious factions preach and proclaim tolerance while in truth anyone who does not fall within their sects hierarchy are condemned to a fate worse than death to include eternal damnation.
 
Thousands of years of stifled growth and advancement due to some written words supposedly by a god who promises paradise after you are dead yet written by men who seek power or live in a fantasy of their own creation.. 

Islam is a classic example of the dregs of a religion/government because they can not be separated. If oil had not been found in the Sunni country of Saudi Arabia and their funding of mosque and terrorist cells around the world had been eliminated earth would be a safer place IMO.

Some people need to feel there is a light at the end of the tunnel of death even if in reality there is just more darkness; but belief/faith is a strong force for life .

If I were ate up with cancer or unable to do anything but lay in a bed and shit myself the capsule would be wonderful; not to mention cutting off the for profit hospitals from stealing everything I ever worked for and anything my living relatives might receive.

If there are pearly gates and a judgement any god who would fault my decision can discuss the situation face to face and explain all the people he has smited/killed/infected with horrible diseases for little or no reason ..
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#30
(12-09-2021, 02:10 AM)ABNARTY Wrote: Wow! Long thread. 

I am not sure why it takes such a contraption to do so. Seems like a long way to go. Maybe if someone is in a bad physical state, lot of pain, can barely control their body. 

On the spiritual side, I suppose it depends on what you believe. I was taught you are God's creation and you have no right to end that creation. However, if God created you with all your warts and flaws, to include mental/emotional/spiritual pain and/or instability, he/she would know what you are going through and would know the outcome before you were even conceived. Yet, here you are. Lot's of questions without answers I guess.

I have a strong Christian faith and am at peace with it. Still, I wonder where Cain and Able's wives came from. Seems like a big plot hole. 

Will the pod make sure you are jabbed against C19 before it kills you? I mean without that, you are on the southbound for sure.

If you look carefully, man is created twice in Genesis. I don't think Abel was ever married, but Cain's wife was found in The Land of Nod, Eastward of Eden. It's a little hazy, but I reckon folks can either believe that he married his sister, he married a gal from the other creation, who happened to be living in Nod, or she was a special creation just for him, making a third creation I guess. Who knows?

There used to be a whole big ruckus about how the Children of Cain differed from the Children of Seth, but you don't hear much about that anymore since God has changed in the minds of men over time to love everyone and become a kinder, gentler kind of god who just can't say "no" any more. There used to be a lot if fire and brimstone about an Angry God, but I reckon he must have moved to the coast, tuned in, turned on, and dropped out. Might even wear flowers in his hair now.

.
Diogenes was eating bread and lentils for supper. He was seen by the philosopher Aristippus, who lived comfortably by flattering the king.

Said Aristippus, ‘If you would learn to be subservient to the king you would not have to live on lentils.’ Said Diogenes, ‘Learn to live on lentils and you will not have to be subservient to the king.’


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#31
(12-09-2021, 08:50 AM)727Sky Wrote: To many people on their knees praying as the executioner draws the blade across their throats for me to have much fear of a god as man seems to be the one to fear. Religions have been responsible for untold thousands of deaths and wars, all in the name of some silent unseen sky fairy who has mankind write what the god supposedly wants us to believe. Key words being "man writes what is to be believed" and then the man claims his hand was guided by some supreme god.

The religious factions preach and proclaim tolerance while in truth anyone who does not fall within their sects hierarchy are condemned to a fate worse than death to include eternal damnation.
 
Thousands of years of stifled growth and advancement due to some written words supposedly by a god who promises paradise after you are dead yet written by men who seek power or live in a fantasy of their own creation.. 

Islam is a classic example of the dregs of a religion/government because they can not be separated. If oil had not been found in the Sunni country of Saudi Arabia and their funding of mosque and terrorist cells around the world had been eliminated earth would be a safer place IMO.

Some people need to feel there is a light at the end of the tunnel of death even if in reality there is just more darkness; but belief/faith is a strong force for life .

If I were ate up with cancer or unable to do anything but lay in a bed and shit myself the capsule would be wonderful; not to mention cutting off the for profit hospitals from stealing everything I ever worked for and anything my living relatives might receive.

If there are pearly gates and a judgement any god who would fault my decision can discuss the situation face to face and explain all the people he has smited/killed/infected with horrible diseases  for little or no reason ..

And there is the rub. Whether there is a God or not - I happen to believe there is, but to each his own - most folks don't know that God, and can't see it for the label that priests and acolytes have tried to wrap around it to achieve their own ends. They change the perception of a god in the minds of the masses, and the masses never look beyond what is placed at the end of their noses, and so never see past the man-made label... and the ingredients on that label change to suit the narrative of the day.

I also think that anyone who fears God has issues that they'll never be able to resolve. They've taken the bait, listened to too many preachers and priests, and didn't do enough seeking on their own. They settled for the labels offered, to their own detriment. There is always a reason for fear, and if it is present, they better spend more time looking inward, and less looking outward seeking advice from others who know no more than they do.

.
Diogenes was eating bread and lentils for supper. He was seen by the philosopher Aristippus, who lived comfortably by flattering the king.

Said Aristippus, ‘If you would learn to be subservient to the king you would not have to live on lentils.’ Said Diogenes, ‘Learn to live on lentils and you will not have to be subservient to the king.’


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