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What might it all mean?
#1
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020...in-georgia




I like the number 15...




"Number 15 is considered as a good leader. You possess the leadership attributes that are present in number 1. In a group of people, you are likely to volunteer to lead and offer guidance to the rest. This is why I said that a person of this number is influential."

The symbolic meaning of number 15
Apart from the attributes that I have discussed, we also have a set of meanings that can define a number 15.

Great leadership
Number 15 is considered as a good leader. You possess the leadership attributes that are present in number 1. In a group of people, you are likely to volunteer to lead and offer guidance to the rest. This is why I said that a person of this number is influential. You don’t prefer when you are led.

Home
This number is symbolic of a home. Number 15s are in love with the structure of the family. You will not find any number 15 advocating for things such as separation or divorce.

Romance
You should consider dating a number 15 if you are looking for a romantic dating partner. You will have the best experience in a relationship with a number 15 as they are very romantic. They are detached from material gains in a relationship and work to keep a relationship separate from material things.

Material success
In as much as a number 15 is not attracted to material gains in a relationship, you will see them amongst the wealthiest people. Material success is a hidden meaning of number 15. The number represents the sun, Mercury, and power, which combines well to yield material success.

The number is also related to new beginnings and will often give you another chance to try something new in your quest to gain material wealth.

Number 15 and relationships
Number 15s take relationships very seriously. You will never find them engaged in casual relationships. Marriage is a primary goal in any relationship that a number 15 gets involved with.

If you are dating a number 15, you have to know that they are appealed by the romance they get in a relationship. Therefore, you should strive to be a romantic person to maintain a relationship with a number 15.

If you are a number 15, your perfect mate should be a number 3 or 7. Since you honestly believe in love, you tend to look for the genuine number 7 or the tolerant number 3.

The career path of a number 15
The purpose of number 15
In numerology, number 15 is tasked with showing love and teaching others. You are very spirited and would easily work to achieve these key objectives of your number.

As a number 15, you should consider the following careers:

Research
Your love for exploration makes you an ideal candidate for a career in research. You can excel in this career as you will always be seeking answers to pertinent questions in your field of research.

Caregiving
Being a ‘homely’ person, you will make an excellent career in the medical or caregiving career paths. You work well with children and the elderly.

Art
You can also work well in the art industry. This career path has a relation with your attribute as an explorer. You tend to find creative ways of solving matters around you, and thus, you can excel in the creative professions.

What does it mean when you see 15?
If you’re seeing number 15, it is because your angel is trying to tell you what to do to make your life better.

Number 15 represent positive changes in life. This number usually comes when the universe is sending a wave of positive change to your life.

The number 15 may start appearing in your life leaving you unsure of what to do. You cannot force the above-mentioned meanings in your life, but you can do the following to maximize the potential of the appearance of number 15 in your life:

Time for change: you should know that you need a significant change the moment number 15 start appearing in your life. This change can be in the form of many things such as dating partner, job, attitude towards people, view of life, etc.

Make significant life choices: number 15 will prompt you to make significant life choices. For example, you may find that you have applied for two job openings and have passed the interviews for both. In such a scenario, you are required to make an informed choice that will influence your life positively. As a tip, you should always rely on the character traits and the symbolic meanings of number 15 to guide your choice.

Only 15 minutes!

It only takes you 15 minutes to deny yourself the pleasure of engaging in old habits and dangerous desires. If you can manage to restrain yourself for 15 minutes, you will open doors for exciting and constructive things in your life.

That’s number 15 for you!

What does the angel number 15 mean?
Angel number 15 is a number that stands for the positive changes you must make to achieve a better life.

People who are under the influence of this number are usually in the process of making some important changes that will turn their life around.

What is the spiritual meaning of 15?
Number 15 speaks of spiritual harmony and its manifestation. This number represents the belief that everything that goes on physically will first pass through a spiritual test.

The balance and change you seek can only be achieved if your spirit agrees.

What does number 15 mean biblically?
In the Bible, number 15 represents rest. Usually, the feast of Unleavened Bread is held on the 15th day of the Hebrew month of Nisan.

The rest spoken of is the kind of rest that comes after deliverance, like when God preserved the lives of the Israelites’ firstborns when the Angel of Death visited Egypt.

Is 15 an angel number?
Yes, number 15 is an angel number. This number brings the message of an incoming change to people who have been craving to turn their lives around.

Number 15 combines the qualities of numbers 1 and 5 to send a solid message of new beginnings, advancement, and positivity.

What is the significance of 15 in the Bible?
In the Bible, number 15 signifies the power of God contrasted against man’s powerlessness. Number 15 represents rest and in the Bible, God told us to hold our peace while He fights for us.

This is still how it is today. All we have to do on earth is believe in God and follow His instructions while we watch as our problems are solved like the deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt.

Why do I keep seeing 15?
You keep seeing number 15 because your angel is trying to speak to you.

Number 15 is an angel number that carries a special message to whoever is seeing it. This message will stop appearing to you the moment you’re able to decipher the message.

Is 15 a good number in numerology?
Number 15 signifies positive change, so yes, it is a good number.

If you’re seeing number 15 consistently, there’s no reason to panic. Your angels just want you to make a few changes that will turn your life for the better.

Is 15 a lucky number in Chinese?
Yes, 15 is a lucky number in Chinese. This is because it combines two other lucky numbers which are 1 and 5.

Number 1 signifies positive starts and excellence while number 5 represents key elements in life, such as the 5 basic human senses and 5 fingers.

What does the number 15 mean in dreams?
If you dream of number 15, it’s because your angel is trying to tell you that your situation cannot change unless your lifestyle changes.

People under the influence of number 15 have to go through a phase of remodeling their life to suit the change they desire.

Is the number 15 a lucky number?
Yes, number 15 is a lucky number. It’s a lucky number in Chinese, Indian and many other cultures around the world.

This number combines lucky numbers 1 and 5 to form a numerical value that brings good luck to people.

What does the number 15 signify?
Number 15 signifies new beginnings, fresh starts, advancement, mind renewal, re-evaluation, rejuvenation, and remolding.

People who are under the influence of number 15 will have to make certain positive changes to experience a wave of positivity in their life.

What does it mean to be born on the 15th?
Babies who are born on the 15th are meant to experience excellence and good fortune in their lives.

Number 15 commands favor and luck. People who are born on the 15th of a month are likely to become quite successful in their lifetime.

What does angel number 15 mean by Doreen Virtue?
According to Doreen Virtue, number 15 is a powerful number that depicts a key.

People who are passing through a tough time are like people trying to open a door. Without a key, you can’t open the door.

Number 15 is like a key sent by the spiritual authorities to try and get you to open the door to your success story.

What does angel number 15 mean in love?
Number 15 represents passionate love. It represents a kind of love that is unconditional and without boundaries. "






Perhaps 15 will serve better than 9. Or perhaps when someone else is in power they can nake it... 18? At any rate, 9 has run it's course. Time for something....new. it feels, liberating...yes, liberally liberating. 15, I like it. 15 Supreme court justices suits me fine.
internet Agent Provocateur
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#2
Numbers are a man-made concept.

Mathematics is basically a set of mutual agreements.

While i respect people's beliefs in numerology, it is just that, a belief. And if a person starts to think that number 15 occurs frequently in their lives, as in register plates, phone numbers, lotto numbers... Then that person starts to pay more attention to number 15 than in other numbers, and thus, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

While i, myself, believe that angels are real, and one just recently saved me from a super serious injury or death... why would an angel, which is in my opinion, a divine being, would try to tell me things by showing number 15 all the time? Why can't the angel whisper into my ear "Dude, you gotta fix your shit, here is what i want you to do..." and then go on. Or better yet, leave me a note on the table, so i might even remember.
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#3
(10-14-2020, 10:03 PM)Antisthenes Wrote: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020...in-georgia




I like the number 15...




"Number 15 is considered as a good leader. You possess the leadership attributes that are present in number 1. In a group of people, you are likely to volunteer to lead and offer guidance to the rest. This is why I said that a person of this number is influential."

The symbolic meaning of number 15
Apart from the attributes that I have discussed, we also have a set of meanings that can define a number 15.

Great leadership
Number 15 is considered as a good leader. You possess the leadership attributes that are present in number 1. In a group of people, you are likely to volunteer to lead and offer guidance to the rest. This is why I said that a person of this number is influential. You don’t prefer when you are led.

Home
This number is symbolic of a home. Number 15s are in love with the structure of the family. You will not find any number 15 advocating for things such as separation or divorce.

Romance
You should consider dating a number 15 if you are looking for a romantic dating partner. You will have the best experience in a relationship with a number 15 as they are very romantic. They are detached from material gains in a relationship and work to keep a relationship separate from material things.

Material success
In as much as a number 15 is not attracted to material gains in a relationship, you will see them amongst the wealthiest people. Material success is a hidden meaning of number 15. The number represents the sun, Mercury, and power, which combines well to yield material success.

The number is also related to new beginnings and will often give you another chance to try something new in your quest to gain material wealth.

Number 15 and relationships
Number 15s take relationships very seriously. You will never find them engaged in casual relationships. Marriage is a primary goal in any relationship that a number 15 gets involved with.

If you are dating a number 15, you have to know that they are appealed by the romance they get in a relationship. Therefore, you should strive to be a romantic person to maintain a relationship with a number 15.  

If you are a number 15, your perfect mate should be a number 3 or 7. Since you honestly believe in love, you tend to look for the genuine number 7 or the tolerant number 3.

The career path of a number 15
The purpose of number 15
In numerology, number 15 is tasked with showing love and teaching others. You are very spirited and would easily work to achieve these key objectives of your number.

As a number 15, you should consider the following careers:

Research
Your love for exploration makes you an ideal candidate for a career in research. You can excel in this career as you will always be seeking answers to pertinent questions in your field of research.

Caregiving
Being a ‘homely’ person, you will make an excellent career in the medical or caregiving career paths. You work well with children and the elderly.

Art
You can also work well in the art industry. This career path has a relation with your attribute as an explorer. You tend to find creative ways of solving matters around you, and thus, you can excel in the creative professions.

What does it mean when you see 15?
If you’re seeing number 15, it is because your angel is trying to tell you what to do to make your life better.

Number 15 represent positive changes in life. This number usually comes when the universe is sending a wave of positive change to your life.

The number 15 may start appearing in your life leaving you unsure of what to do. You cannot force the above-mentioned meanings in your life, but you can do the following to maximize the potential of the appearance of number 15 in your life:

Time for change: you should know that you need a significant change the moment number 15 start appearing in your life. This change can be in the form of many things such as dating partner, job, attitude towards people, view of life, etc.

Make significant life choices: number 15 will prompt you to make significant life choices. For example, you may find that you have applied for two job openings and have passed the interviews for both. In such a scenario, you are required to make an informed choice that will influence your life positively. As a tip, you should always rely on the character traits and the symbolic meanings of number 15 to guide your choice.

Only 15 minutes!

It only takes you 15 minutes to deny yourself the pleasure of engaging in old habits and dangerous desires. If you can manage to restrain yourself for 15 minutes, you will open doors for exciting and constructive things in your life.

That’s number 15 for you!

What does the angel number 15 mean?
Angel number 15 is a number that stands for the positive changes you must make to achieve a better life.

People who are under the influence of this number are usually in the process of making some important changes that will turn their life around.

What is the spiritual meaning of 15?
Number 15 speaks of spiritual harmony and its manifestation. This number represents the belief that everything that goes on physically will first pass through a spiritual test.

The balance and change you seek can only be achieved if your spirit agrees.

What does number 15 mean biblically?
In the Bible, number 15 represents rest. Usually, the feast of Unleavened Bread is held on the 15th day of the Hebrew month of Nisan.

The rest spoken of is the kind of rest that comes after deliverance, like when God preserved the lives of the Israelites’ firstborns when the Angel of Death visited Egypt.

Is 15 an angel number?
Yes, number 15 is an angel number. This number brings the message of an incoming change to people who have been craving to turn their lives around.

Number 15 combines the qualities of numbers 1 and 5 to send a solid message of new beginnings, advancement, and positivity.

What is the significance of 15 in the Bible?
In the Bible, number 15 signifies the power of God contrasted against man’s powerlessness. Number 15 represents rest and in the Bible, God told us to hold our peace while He fights for us.

This is still how it is today. All we have to do on earth is believe in God and follow His instructions while we watch as our problems are solved like the deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt.

Why do I keep seeing 15?
You keep seeing number 15 because your angel is trying to speak to you.

Number 15 is an angel number that carries a special message to whoever is seeing it. This message will stop appearing to you the moment you’re able to decipher the message.

Is 15 a good number in numerology?
Number 15 signifies positive change, so yes, it is a good number.

If you’re seeing number 15 consistently, there’s no reason to panic. Your angels just want you to make a few changes that will turn your life for the better.

Is 15 a lucky number in Chinese?
Yes, 15 is a lucky number in Chinese. This is because it combines two other lucky numbers which are 1 and 5.

Number 1 signifies positive starts and excellence while number 5 represents key elements in life, such as the 5 basic human senses and 5 fingers.

What does the number 15 mean in dreams?
If you dream of number 15, it’s because your angel is trying to tell you that your situation cannot change unless your lifestyle changes.

People under the influence of number 15 have to go through a phase of remodeling their life to suit the change they desire.

Is the number 15 a lucky number?
Yes, number 15 is a lucky number. It’s a lucky number in Chinese, Indian and many other cultures around the world.

This number combines lucky numbers 1 and 5 to form a numerical value that brings good luck to people.

What does the number 15 signify?
Number 15 signifies new beginnings, fresh starts, advancement, mind renewal, re-evaluation, rejuvenation, and remolding.

People who are under the influence of number 15 will have to make certain positive changes to experience a wave of positivity in their life.

What does it mean to be born on the 15th?
Babies who are born on the 15th are meant to experience excellence and good fortune in their lives.

Number 15 commands favor and luck. People who are born on the 15th of a month are likely to become quite successful in their lifetime.

What does angel number 15 mean by Doreen Virtue?
According to Doreen Virtue, number 15 is a powerful number that depicts a key.

People who are passing through a tough time are like people trying to open a door. Without a key, you can’t open the door.

Number 15 is like a key sent by the spiritual authorities to try and get you to open the door to your success story.

What does angel number 15 mean in love?
Number 15 represents passionate love. It represents a kind of love that is unconditional and without boundaries. "






Perhaps 15 will serve better than 9. Or perhaps when someone else is in power they can nake it... 18? At any rate, 9 has run it's course. Time for something....new. it feels, liberating...yes, liberally liberating. 15, I like it.  15 Supreme court justices suits me fine.
It would be nice to think that numbers could shape ones life, it would some how make life safer, that ones life is already predetermined. Much as it would be good, I just can give up the fact that im to a very large % responsible for my life.
WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH, THE EU IS FATHER AND MOTHER / FEAR NOT DEATH, BUT FEAR THE WAY YOU WILL DIE
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#4
If 15 is good, 30 is better. The opposition can double it in their favor next round once that door is opened.

Where does stacking the deck end?

Some day, we may all be on the SCOTUS. It's the only logical conclusion in a long game of one-upmanship.

.
“There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.” ― Ernest Hemingway
Reply
#5
(10-15-2020, 10:18 AM)Ninurta Wrote: If 15 is good, 30 is better. The opposition can double it in their favor next round once that door is opened.

Where does stacking the deck end?

Some day, we may all be on the SCOTUS. It's the only logical conclusion in a long game of one-upmanship.

.

31...we need that odd number tinybiggrin the more the merrier. Polticians and Corporations need to know the court can't be purchased.
internet Agent Provocateur
Reply
#6
(10-15-2020, 10:18 AM)Ninurta Wrote: If 15 is good, 30 is better. The opposition can double it in their favor next round once that door is opened.

Where does stacking the deck end?

420
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#7
(10-15-2020, 07:15 PM)Antisthenes Wrote: Polticians and Corporations need to know the court can't be purchased.

That would be just beautiful. But how could it happen in reality, when politicians and corporations themselves, can be purchased?
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#8
(10-16-2020, 02:03 AM)Finspiracy Wrote:
(10-15-2020, 07:15 PM)Antisthenes Wrote: Polticians and Corporations need to know the court can't be purchased.

That would be just beautiful. But how could it happen in reality, when politicians and corporations themselves, can be purchased?

I suppose by making it more expensive than it's worth to them?
internet Agent Provocateur
Reply
#9
(10-15-2020, 07:15 PM)Antisthenes Wrote:
(10-15-2020, 10:18 AM)Ninurta Wrote: If 15 is good, 30 is better. The opposition can double it in their favor next round once that door is opened.

Where does stacking the deck end?

Some day, we may all be on the SCOTUS. It's the only logical conclusion in a long game of one-upmanship.

.

31...we need that odd number  tinybiggrin    the more the merrier. Polticians and Corporations need to know the court can't be purchased.

If it can be packed, it can be purchased - it's just a matter of which side wants to pay the highest premium at that point.

.
“There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.” ― Ernest Hemingway
Reply
#10
(10-16-2020, 03:20 AM)Ninurta Wrote:
(10-15-2020, 07:15 PM)Antisthenes Wrote:
(10-15-2020, 10:18 AM)Ninurta Wrote: If 15 is good, 30 is better. The opposition can double it in their favor next round once that door is opened.

Where does stacking the deck end?

Some day, we may all be on the SCOTUS. It's the only logical conclusion in a long game of one-upmanship.

.

31...we need that odd number  tinybiggrin    the more the merrier. Polticians and Corporations need to know the court can't be purchased.

If it can be packed, it can be purchased - it's just a matter of which side wants to pay the highest premium at that point.

.

Then the game is up, my friend. I fear it is anyways. You fight for your righteous world and I will fight for mine. (-;
internet Agent Provocateur
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#11
3,6,9,12,15,18,21,24,27,30





it's a magic number.

5,10,15,20,25,30,35,40,45,50





could really stack em with 5

or we could keep on using ol nasty number 9.



you gave me fortune,
you gave me fame,
you gave me power in your gods name


Reply
#12
(10-16-2020, 03:35 AM)Antisthenes Wrote:
(10-16-2020, 03:20 AM)Ninurta Wrote:
(10-15-2020, 07:15 PM)Antisthenes Wrote:
(10-15-2020, 10:18 AM)Ninurta Wrote: If 15 is good, 30 is better. The opposition can double it in their favor next round once that door is opened.

Where does stacking the deck end?

Some day, we may all be on the SCOTUS. It's the only logical conclusion in a long game of one-upmanship.

.

31...we need that odd number  tinybiggrin    the more the merrier. Polticians and Corporations need to know the court can't be purchased.

If it can be packed, it can be purchased - it's just a matter of which side wants to pay the highest premium at that point.

.

Then the game is up, my friend. I fear it is anyways. You fight for your righteous world and I will fight for mine. (-;

Or everyone, and i mean everyone on this planet just stops fighting completely, and thus, make it not righteous as an absolute, but more righteous.

I know it is a wild, far-out idea. Not to fight anymore, in order to make this world a better place for each and everyone of us. What a load of hippie bullshit. Carry on. Nothing to read here, regarding my post.
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#13
(10-16-2020, 03:35 AM)Antisthenes Wrote: Then the game is up, my friend. I fear it is anyways. You fight for your righteous world and I will fight for mine. (-;

As usual, you're probably right, and the game probably is up. That doesn't obviate us of the necessity to go down kicking and screaming, though, so the second thought there sounds like a winner, too. Kicking against the goad is a human quality found in nearly all Americans - it's how we wound up in this nation to begin with. Someone, somewhere, came here to get away from that noisome goad, and now it's in our blood, in the national DNA.

Also in common with immigrants everywhere in all ages, we likely brought too much baggage with us from the Old Country in an effort to retain some of "the comforts of home", and thereby created a new home not all that dissimilar from the one we were escaping to begin with. It's a vicious cycle.

Harking back to a previous post you made, I too have been a lifelong Republican, from at least a few previous generations of Republicans. Before that, most of my forbears were Democrats, but they made a sea change some time after Reconstruction when the parties started shifting sides, and the previously conservative Democratic Party radicalized, while the previously radical Republican party calmed it's young ass down and became more conservative. So, in reality, I suppose I come from a long line of Conservatives, possibly "Libertarians" in modern parlance, independent of whichever party identified as Conservative at the time. So conservative that my grand dad was called "Whig" by all who knew him. Not "A whig", just "Whig", as if it were a proper name.

I disassociated myself from the Republicans during the Bush years, when it became apparent that RINO "Neocons" had taken over the party and started steering it away from the conservative liberty it had previously represented. That was during the Bush years - not W, but his dear old pa GHW. I didn't leave the party so much as it left me, shifting too far to the Left, radicalizing once again as it had been when it was born before the Civil War, and as it came of age in that blood bath, and as it had matured abusing it's iron fist during Reconstruction, before it calmed it's ass down and swapped polarities with the Democrat party.

The election of the Bad Orange Man is what brought me back towards it. He represented the party as it as when I first knew it, supportive of liberty and railing against the Totalitarian status quo that the Republican party was fast developing under the steerage of the Neocons. Republicans were shifting left, Democrats shifting even Lefter, and he brought something of a halt to that shift among Republicans.


I could never vote for a Romney or a McCain - they are - or were in the case of mcCain - fine representations of the very Neocons who hijacked what used to be my party. I'd vote for a rattlesnake first - at least it's honest about what it is.

So, while we may have somewhat similar political histories with the Republican party and our affiliation with it, we're not the same, and different enough to keep life interesting in these discussions! I'm more of a Libertarian or a "Whig", while you appear to be more of a "Radical Republican" of Lincoln's era... yet the "R" still stands there staring at us in both cases, all the same.

.
“There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.” ― Ernest Hemingway
Reply
#14
(10-16-2020, 05:41 PM)Ninurta Wrote:
(10-16-2020, 03:35 AM)Antisthenes Wrote: Then the game is up, my friend. I fear it is anyways. You fight for your righteous world and I will fight for mine. (-;

As usual, you're probably right, and the game probably is up. That doesn't obviate us of the necessity to go down kicking and screaming, though, so the second thought there sounds like a winner, too. Kicking against the goad is a human quality found in nearly all Americans - it's how we wound up in this nation to begin with. Someone, somewhere, came here to get away from that noisome goad, and now it's in our blood, in the national DNA.

Also in common with immigrants everywhere in all ages, we likely brought too much baggage with us from the Old Country in an effort to retain some of "the comforts of home", and thereby created a new home not all that dissimilar from the one we were escaping to begin with. It's a vicious cycle.

Harking back to a previous post you made, I too have been a lifelong Republican, from at least a few previous generations of Republicans. Before that, most of my forbears were Democrats, but they made a sea change some time after Reconstruction when the parties started shifting sides, and the previously conservative Democratic Party radicalized, while the previously radical Republican party calmed it's young ass down and became more conservative. So, in reality, I suppose I come from a long line of Conservatives, possibly "Libertarians" in modern parlance, independent of whichever party identified as Conservative at the time. So conservative that my grand dad was called "Whig" by all who knew him. Not "A whig", just "Whig", as if it were a proper name.

I disassociated myself from the Republicans during the Bush years, when it became apparent that RINO "Neocons" had taken over the party and started steering it away from the conservative liberty it had previously represented. That was during the Bush years - not W, but his dear old pa GHW. I didn't leave the party so much as it left me, shifting too far to the Left, radicalizing once again as it had been when it was born before the Civil War, and as it came of age in that blood bath, and as it had matured abusing it's iron fist during Reconstruction, before it calmed it's ass down and swapped polarities with the Democrat party.

The election of the Bad Orange Man is what brought me back towards it. He represented the party as it as when I first knew it, supportive of liberty and railing against the Totalitarian status quo that the Republican party was fast developing under the steerage of the Neocons. Republicans were shifting left, Democrats shifting even Lefter, and he brought something of a halt to that shift among Republicans.


I could never vote for a Romney or a McCain - they are - or were in the case of mcCain - fine representations of the very Neocons who hijacked what used to be my party. I'd vote for a rattlesnake first - at least it's honest about what it is.

So, while we may have somewhat similar political histories with the Republican party and our affiliation with it, we're not the same, and different enough to keep life interesting in these discussions! I'm more of a Libertarian or a "Whig", while you appear to be more of a "Radical Republican" of Lincoln's era... yet the "R" still stands there staring at us in both cases, all the same.

.



I do hope America finda calmer seas. We're on the shoals and the ship is in jeopardy. We all have our hopes and ideas of how to bring us out of the straits we find ourselves in and I would be kidding myself if I felt I had any answers.
It's only become recently obvious to me that the lucid amongst the Trump followers are actually railing against a system that they feel stole away with what this Country was built around and not trump himself. He serves as a bulwark against the rising tide of lying, cheating self serving politicians. I get that, I understand the premise of dancing with who brought you to the party. It's only natural to be loyal to someone when you feel they're raging against the machine you abhor so vehemently. It's pragmatic and makes good sense.
My particular take is that the trump handler's and to a lesser degree trump himself saw this frustration and anger with the status quo and realized his way to 270 was to tap into all of that. But by fueling that anger and malcontent he has brought us to the brink and he now revels in it.
He stokes the fires of division, racism and class warfare. I find no solace in a leader that divides it citizenry and sends us into this cesspool we find ourselves in now.
His is a self serving agenda and though he may appeal to those that feel he is making inroads against the career politicians and their machine, he also is not anyone I can follow in good conscience.
He lies, cheats, steals,obsfucates and divides. I can not personally wrap my mind around the idea that the end justifies the means. I find these people repulsive.
I understand that the GOP has made the deal they have because they percieve he is able to forward their agenda. But at what cost? That cost is too high for me. I won't go there.
Between his alienation of half the American public and most of our Allies, his coddling of Dictator's and his illicit deals and his bombastic style, he is that bridge too far for me. So in a meme, yes, ........"orange man bad".
I was born in the Midwest and relocated at a young age to the ancesteral home of The John Birch Society.
Orange County, CA was a bastion of Republican politics and ideals and I was raised in an evironment of believing that honesty, hard work and an can do attitude of bootstrapping ingenuity would get me where I needed to go. I was raised to believe those were Republican Judeo-Christian tenets that would carry me through a successful life.
I believed it all and still do. But then Bush came and the Clintons followed and then the Supreme Court annointed W.
He and 9/11 shifted the western worlds paradigm and I have been jaded ever since. There has been an uneasiness in my psyche because I have watched the disassembly of our Union ever since.
The manipulation of the National mood has been concocted into a perfect cocktail that they serve up at will.
Trump is not only the latest iteration of that, he's also the personification of it.
At this point, I don't believe Civil War is going to improve matters and trump is marching us Pell Mell towards that end. I am more at ease with the status quo than any scorched earth policy. I have children and grandchildren I would like not to have that horror visited upon them.
These keyboard warriors that call for insurrection have no clue what the dogs of war will bring and if they do, they will absolutely rue the day they called them from their hellhole.
You brought forward that we're both Republicans but on opposite ends of the spectrum. Actually, I see you more as a patriot seeking a new political dogma and an entirely new world. I see no remnants of any Republican perspective.
The whigs were for a federally sponsered manifest destiny in a time where there were new frontiers, the only new frontiers now are of the mind. We must make it here and in concert with one another. This new dogma that has ...excuse my insolence, hijacked the Republican Party is much more closely aligned with the know Nothing Party, an earlier group of disgruntled nativists.
I can see where you can imagine some new frontier without dogmatic politicians ruling our destiny, but is this really the leader ypu want to accomplish that goal?
I see him as a George McClellan. A feckless, preening, loudmouth dandy leading us into the fray to be slaughtered.
I absolutely long for the days when American exceptionalism and blissful ignorance allowed us to live lives of happy and quiet desperation. When we worked hard, raised our kids and watched the world go by. Those days are gone so we move through this new minefield and live what the Chinese curse refers to as "interesting times".
I am glad you and I can partake in a civil discourse. I enjoy your ideas and appreciate your strides towards commity. It is a very welcome respite and your amiability is not lost on me.
In the previous thread where you had quoted me, I had tried to speak to another member in regards to my life and education in an effort to provide that I wasn't some illiterate fool that expects the Government to take care of me from cradle to grave and was promptly chastised for being an egotist and elitist. I am neither. But it more often than not is how we hear one another in these polarizing times. Always waiting to be on guard and attack and make wrong.
I'm glad we don't share that relationship, you and I.
But I do see that trump has brought most of our society to that precipice and perhaps above and beyond any other causation, the reason I find "Orange Man Bad".
internet Agent Provocateur
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#15
@Antisthenes - One can indeed hope that America finds calmer waters, but I don't think that is in the cards for the foreseeable future. The nation has become too polarized over the last 30 years or so, and every year sees an increase in the polarization, neither polarity giving any signs of backing down or any willingness to compromise. Few if any have any willingness to meet in the middle any more, and each pole of the polarity generally has blinders on that prevent them from seeing anything beyond their party line.

You see danger approaching from one direction, and I see it coming from another, but I am not entirely convinced that the two are mutually exclusive - I'm not convinced it is an "either/or" situation. I can, if I stretch my mind a little, see it approaching from BOTH of those avenues.

The problem with power is that those most suited to exercise it flee from the notion, and those who seek it are the most unfit to wield it that we could imagine. For that reason, the only solution I can see is to place the power back where it originated - in the hands of the people, individually. Folks need to tend to their own knittin', and let other folks tend to theirs. That would solve 90% or better of America's current problems, I believe. LGBTQXYZ? Fine. Knock yerself out. Not my cup of tea, but if I ain't engaging, what business is it of mine anyhow? Wanna buy a gun? Fine again - knock yerself out some more. If it ain't MY gun, and it ain't MY money, what business is it of mine? Wanna do a line of coke? Not my problem, so go right ahead. What business is it of mine how someone else decides to destroy their OWN life? It ain't hurting me, so why should I butt in? Wanna kill off your progeny? Have at it - if it ain't MY progeny, then I don't think I've got any say in the matter.

If folks could manage to mind their own business, instead of letting theirs slide to mind OTHER folks' business, we'd be a lot better off as a nation, I think. Worse yet are the ones who think I should make it MY business to mind THEIR business. I ain't gonna do it - they can think for themselves and act accordingly, or not, and I don't care either way - that sounds like a personal problem to me. The only time I feel a need to step in is when their business actually does impact mine, and that is not nearly as often as either side thinks it is.

That irrational need to mind everyone else's business but their own runs straight down both sides of the aisle, but on different topics.

I concede that Trump is a polarizing figure, but I also submit the possibility that is in reaction to a prior polarization that has been going on for decades now, and intensifying. He's just the latest installment, and Biden is no less polarizing. Kamala Harris is probably the most polarizing of the individuals slated to be voted upon, and in the even of a Biden win, it's a virtual certainty in my mind that he will not last as long as lightning on a limb, and she will be sitting in the driver's seat before any of us realize what just happened - Pelosi is already making plans for it. If you think her discussion of the 25th Amendment was about Trump, you'd better re-analyze that notion.

Where you say "He stokes the fires of division, racism and class warfare. I find no solace in a leader that divides it citizenry and sends us into the cesspool we find ourselves in now" I don't see him as being alone in that, nor even the originator of it - nor does he appear to me to be the worst of the bunch for it. Contrarily, for nearly two centuries now, that behavior has been a hallmark of the Left, from Marxists through Communists through Socialists right up to the current DNC. Across the entire spectrum. They have used it to manufacture and fan the flames of war and revolution for nearly two centuries now, and I find it going on right here, right now, still, in our own back yards. If Trump is guilty of such, he's not alone, nor is he the worst for it. His piss poor efforts at it actually pale in comparison to the Masters of the Strategy... yet few if any seem to even notice.

Where you say "He lies, cheats steals obfuscates and divides. I can not personally wrap my mind around the idea that the end justifies the means. I find these people repulsive" the same can be said of Biden, yet you apparently have no problem voting for it in his case...

I also agree that W and 9/11 shifted the western worlds paradigm, but I submit that he merely continued a shift that had been going on, and intensifying, since his pappy's administration, and through every single administration since, W's included but not exclusively.

Civil War will not improve anything. Wars never do - they just sort out a victor, a pecking order, who is going to call the shots for whom. That's all they ever sort out, and there is generally a lot of rubble, death, misery, and destruction created in the interim. In case folks haven't noticed yet, we are already at Civil War - I can show you the rubble, death, and destruction to verify it... and Trump's people are not the ones who started it. I can, however, virtually guarantee that they will react and respond to it. When pecking orders get sorted out, no one wants to be that last one to the table. Everyone want's their say to be heard when the shooting starts.

A good time will not be had by all when it kicks into high gear. As I recall in a poster from the 60's, "War is bad for children and other living things".

In contrast to yourself, however, I am NOT more at ease with the status quo than I am with scorched earth, and for substantially the same reasons - I too have kids and grandkids. While I don't like seeing them dragged into it, I also cannot stomach seeing them sublimated away by a status quo that is ever fluid, but always being stacked against their abilities to make up their own minds in a matter and steer their own destinies. Death is not pleasant, but neither is slavery, and of the two I would choose death for myself and every last bit of my DNA that resides in any veins anywhere before I would choose for them to submit to the slavery of the proletariat and the dictatorship of the masses.

It's not a pleasant choice, but one I am willing to live or die with as necessity presents itself. My real preference would be for folks to leave other folks alone to live their own lives as they see fit - if you don't like the way someone is living, simply don't hang out with them, and the problems magically resolve. But that is not the way of the modern world. Everyone feels a need to get up in everyone else's business nowadays.

I don't see myself as any sort of patriot. While it is so that "patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels", and I can fairly be characterized as a scoundrel, I don't see myself as the patriotic sort of scoundrel. I don't envision a New Frontier devoid of dogmatic politicians, as a certain amount of political interaction is necessary for a society to function. I just think it should be limited to necessity, and for the rest, let folks figure it out on their own. It's not the government's job, in my view, to make my decisions FOR me, their only function is mediation when conflicts arise between myself and the Other Guy. Regulation of interstate commerce (ACTUAL commerce, not the political gymnastics they use nowadays to create even more burdensome requirements, all blamed on "interstate commerce" when no commerce, and no actual interstate interaction, is even present), foreign affairs, keeping Jack from murdering Joe - or applying swift remedy when he does it anyhow - that should be the extent of it, in my view.

Finally, NEVER apologize for your insolence - insolence is what keeps life interesting!

.
“There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.” ― Ernest Hemingway
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#16
Can I just say, I really enjoy the back and forth between you two @Antisthenes and @Ninurta. This is a perfect example of how two intelligent adults who disagree on some things should communicate.

Rare to see this nowadays.

minusculebeercheers
Men are disturbed, not by things, but by the principles and notions which they form concerning things.

- Epictetus

Nature gave us one tongue and two ears so we could hear twice as much as we speak.

- Epictetus






Reply
#17
(10-16-2020, 11:16 PM)Moonmagic Wrote: Can I just say, I really enjoy the back and forth between you two @Antisthenes and @Ninurta. This is a perfect example of how two intelligent adults who disagree on some things should communicate.

Rare to see this nowadays.

minusculebeercheers

I think it's just possible the two of us could have a beer summit without anyone trying to whack the other with an empty beer bottle. She's never made fun of my bald spot, my crossed eyes, or my crooked toes, so I see no need for me to get nasty at her, either!

Political differences of opinion, like religious ones, are a subject for discussion, not fisticuffs... she'd probably beat me in a wrestlin' match anyhow, delicate flower that I am, so I pride myself on my ability not to provoke one!

The long and the short of it is that I think people can disagree without being disagreeable. The secret to it is really no secret at all - if you have to get nasty or engage in a personal attack, you lose, because you've lost whatever bit of high ground you might have otherwise held. Being forced to go low is being led around by your nose...

If more folks understood that, as @Antisthenes does, then discourse would be a lot more civilized, and Facebook would either have to get with the times or fold up shop.

Politics might even get civil again if that were to occur!

.
“There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.” ― Ernest Hemingway
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#18
(10-16-2020, 11:52 PM)Ninurta Wrote:
(10-16-2020, 11:16 PM)Moonmagic Wrote: Can I just say, I really enjoy the back and forth between you two @Antisthenes and @Ninurta. This is a perfect example of how two intelligent adults who disagree on some things should communicate.

Rare to see this nowadays.

minusculebeercheers

I think it's just possible the two of us could have a beer summit without anyone trying to whack the other with an empty beer bottle. She's never made fun of my bald spot, my crossed eyes, or my crooked toes, so I see no need for me to get nasty at her, either!

Political differences of opinion, like religious ones, are a subject for discussion, not fisticuffs... she'd probably beat me in a wrestlin' match anyhow, delicate flower that I am, so I pride myself on my ability not to provoke one!

The long and the short of it is that I think people can disagree without being disagreeable. The secret to it is really no secret at all - if you have to get nasty or engage in a personal attack, you lose, because you've lost whatever bit of high ground you might have otherwise held. Being forced to go low is being led around by your nose...

If more folks understood that, as @Antisthenes does, then discourse would be a lot more civilized, and Facebook would either have to get with the times or fold up shop.

Politics might even get civil again if that were to occur!

.

It would be great to see more folks adopt discussions like you two, I was somewhere else reading a back and forth before I came here, and when I read your two's posts all I could think is how refreshing it is to read.

... I gotta say though, you ... a delicate flower? smallrofl

tinydrroling
Men are disturbed, not by things, but by the principles and notions which they form concerning things.

- Epictetus

Nature gave us one tongue and two ears so we could hear twice as much as we speak.

- Epictetus






Reply
#19
(10-17-2020, 12:20 AM)Moonmagic Wrote: It would be great to see more folks adopt discussions like you two, I was somewhere else reading a back and forth before I came here, and when I read your two's posts all I could think is how refreshing it is to read.
Yes!
I read your earlier post when you said something about the conversation between @Antisthenes  and @Ninurta and i thought i have to post my respect towards these two also. And... You used the exact same word i planned to use. "Refreshing".
Extremely rare to see stuff like this online these days. It seems like every discussion is some type of a game that has to be won.  But not this one.
minusculeclap
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