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(Taken from a BBC web page from 2002.)

Quote:Wicca is a Pagan Witchcraft tradition. Today, the name Wicca is frequently applied to the entire system of beliefs
and practices that make up the spectrum of contemporary Pagan Witchcraft.

However, although Wicca and Witchcraft are often used interchangeably, it is important to note that there are also
Pagan Witchcraft traditions that are not Wiccan.

Wicca was used originally to distinguish the initiatory tradition of Witchcraft practised as a religion, but American popular
television series have adopted the word to include what would once have been called natural magic or white witchcraft.
When people in Britain describe themselves as Wiccan though, they generally mean that they are practising a form of
religious Witchcraft. Media images often show Wiccans as teenage women, but in fact it is practised by males and
females of all ages.

Origins of Wicca
Religious Witchcraft is not merely a system of magic, but is a Pagan mystery religion worshipping Goddess and God
and venerating the Divine in nature. Its origins lie in pre-Christian religious traditions, folklore, folk witchcraft and ritual
magic, but most Witches draw their inspiration from the 'Book of Shadows', a book of rituals and spells compiled by of
one of Wicca's major figures Gerald Brosseau Gardner (1884-1964).

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Gerald Brosseau Gardner.

Gerald Gardner claimed to have been initiated in 1939 into a coven of Witches who met in the New Forest in Hampshire
and his two most well known books Witchcraft Today (1954) and The Meaning of Witchcraft (1959) produced a huge surge
of interest, inspiring a movement that has spread around the world.

Wicca honours the Divine in the forms of the Triple Goddess, whose aspects of Virgin, Mother, and Wise Woman or Crone
are associated with the waxing, full and waning phases of the Moon, and as the Horned God.

The principal names by which the God is known are Cernunnos or Herne, both of which mean 'Horned One'.
The emphasis placed on Goddess and God differs between groups, traditions and localities, but most Wiccans believe that
for wholeness the image of the Divine must be both female and male.

There are no central authorities in Wicca. Some Witches are solo Witches. Others belong to covens –groups of like-minded
people who meet together to worship the Gods and to do magic. Some covens are part of initiatory traditions in which more
experienced people act as teachers to newcomers.

Others are formed by groups of friends who want to meet and learn together.
The classic number of people in a coven is thirteen, but many covens are smaller. Some are mixed sex groups; others cater
for Witches who prefer single sex covens.

Rites and celebrations
The major festivals of Wicca are known as sabbats. These are held eight times throughout the year and mark changes in the
seasons. The festivals are Winter Solstice or Yule on December 20/21, the shortest day, Summer Solstice or Midsummer on
June 21/22, the longest day, and the Spring and Autumn Equinoxes (March 20/21 and September 20/21) when the hours of
darkness and light are equal.

The other four festivals are Imbolc, February 1/2; Beltane or May Eve on April 30/May 1; Lughnasadh also known by its Anglo
-Saxon name of Lammas or Loaf Mass, August 1/2, and Samhain, also known as All Hallow's Eve, October 31/November 1.
Witches also honour their deities at monthly rites known as esbats, which are held on the full Moon, when the mind is thought
to be more magically powerful.

Sabbats begin at sunset and end at sunset the next day and most rites are held at night, lit evocatively by candles if indoors or
by the moon, bonfires and lanterns if outside. For indoor rituals, some Witches have rooms set aside as temples in their houses,
which they use for rites. Others use their ordinary living space.

Rites take place in a consecrated space, the circle, and even if there is a temple, the circle space is created anew for each rite.
The space is first swept with a broomstick or besom to purify it and then blessed with the four elements –air, fire, water and

The circle is then symbolically sealed by drawing a circle around it in the air with a wooden wand or a black-handled knife known
as an athame. The four directions –east, south, west and north –are then honoured. Within the sacred space, the Goddess and
God are invoked and magic performed. Rituals usually end with blessing a chalice of wine and cakes that are shared among the

Magic and ethics
Like many Pagan religions, Wicca practices magic. Witches believe that the human mind has the power to effect change in ways
that are not yet understood by science. In their rituals, as well as honouring their deities, Witches also perform spells for healing
and to help people with general life problems.

Magic is practised according to an ethical code that teaches that magic may only be performed to help people when it does not
harm others.

Witches believe that the energies that we create influence what happens to us: negative magic rebounds on the perpetuator but

This process is often known as 'Threefold Law'. Other important ethical teachings are that people should strive to live in harmony
with others and with themselves, and with the planet as a whole. Environmental issues are important to Wiccans.

After death
Wicca teaches reincarnation. After death, the spirit is reborn and will meet again those with whom it had close personal ties in
previous lives. The aim of reincarnation is not to escape life on Earth, but to enjoy experiencing it again and again until everything
that can be learned has been absorbed.
When the spirit ceases to reincarnate, it remains in a blissful realm known as 'The Land of Youth' or the 'Summerland'.

Wicca and other contemporary Pagan spiritualities
Wiccan ideas and rites have been taken up by the Goddess spirituality movement.
They appeal to both women and men who have rejected male-dominated religions and who prefer to venerate the Divine in female
form as Goddess.

There are many similarities between Wicca and Druidry. Both emphasize the importance of developing close links with Nature and
their rites frequently take place out of doors. Both also stress the importance of guardianship of the Earth and environmentalism.

Some distinctions are that Druidry is more purely Celtic than Wicca, there is less emphasis on magic in Druidry, and Druidry more
actively encourages the development of music and poetry as paths to spiritual growth...'

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I know one true white witch, and she is a wonderful person, but if im honest 99.999% of the people I have meet claiming to be witches are just show off wana bees. Some people just need to feel different
Thanks for starting this thread.

Occasionally, I start drinking, and find it to be a good idea to go through Facebook posts kicking over apple carts to see what happens. Recently, under such circumstances, I had occasion to interact with an alleged "witch". Now, I've known a couple of real-life actual witches. Once upon a time these mountains were replete with them. I guess they moved into the wilderness with the rest of the ne'er-do-wells to escape the confines of a civilization that was at odds with them. Anyhow, I'm not a stranger to the reality of it.

This particular "witch" posted an image of what to do if you wanted to be a "witch", and it was a listing of mostly books to read. You don't get witchery out of books. As far as I have seen, it's either hereditary or by invitation, taken under the wing so to speak of an actual witch and taught the ins and outs of it. It is passed on by word of mouth, not the written word.

Gerald Gardner was the first to think that witchery could be transmitted via the written word, and Gardnerian witchcraft (which bears NO resemblance to actual witchcraft) was born. I call such folks, those who get their witchery out of books, "Barnes and Noble witches". One of my step daughters (of a former wife, not Grace) was such a "witch". Her mother was the real deal, but she herself had no such luck... so she thought she could force the issue by getting her religion out of books instead of asking her ma about it.

Anyhow, back to the story at hand. Being the grouchy old bastard I am, I posted a comment under the book listing:

Quote:Seriously? Another Barnes and Noble witch? Amateurs!

True to form, it provoked a reaction:

Quote:actually sir I am a hereditary witch 4th generation Dianiac to be precise lol. It's for beginners as you can tell. To each their own.

Now, Dianic Witches are a perverted branch of Gardnerian witchcraft - meaning it's entirely a made-up thing. Gardner made modern "wicca" up from whole cloth, and weak minded folk took that and ran with it. They ran in all directions with it, willy-nilly, and "developed" an entire family of "traditions" that all trace back to Gardner's fantasies. You can't grow a real plant from a plastic ficus root, and all modern "wicca" is utter bullshit, having nothing to do with the Old Religion. Anyhow, Dianic witchery is a special kind of stupid, developed by a disgruntled man-hating hag (euphemistically called a "feminist"), and was instituted on 21 December 1971. Note that date, and then note that the "witch" claimed to be "4th generation". There have not been 4 generations since 21 December 1971.

So I responded to that with:

Quote:Oh, I see. Well, as you say, to each their own. I do have one serious question, though - how is it one can be hereditary 4th generation in a religion that began on winter solstice, 1971, which is just at two generations ago?

... which lit up the "witch" (no gory pun or Salem references intended) and really got her ass up on her shoulders. She then responded:

Quote: Well sugar let's give you the breakdown of the blood line both sides of my family are witches mind you we are pagan. Correct me if I am wrong. First off I am wiccan not just pagan yes fourth generation due to the fact that both my greatmothers were initiated at a later time into the Dianiac coven once it was established and in turn my grandmother did and my mom and then me sir so once again yes 4th gen. Also the dianiac witches came out of the women's liberation movement as well ask yourself how long that fight went on for. My mother was born in 61' I was born in 88 and my bday is (date redacted) I was raised in wicca and started my year and a day at 12 no path was chosen by me at that point. It is within our practice and coven that every 10 years a high priestess my ordain another. There are multiple covens that have branched off the original that started in California. We consider it a healthy practice. All 3 of the previously mentioned women are high priestess. Cough cough hopefully so will I. So there you have it. Do you have any additional questions?

What a convoluted path to attempt to cover the fact that there ARE NO "4th generation" Dianic witches! POOF! The bubble was popped, and my work there was done.

Item: if her mother was born in 1961, then her "greatmothers" (by which I presume she means "great grand mothers") were indeed VERY long in the tooth to be "initiated into a coven" in 1971 - never mind the fact that the cult was initiated at the very end of that year in California, and would have taken some few years more to spread all the way to the Virginia outback.

Item: I have never known ANY actual witches of the Old Ways to be members of a "coven", which is a Gardnerian concept. They are almost always solitary and stand-offish, and not too trusting of others. Probably something from the actual history they have been handed down, as opposed to the gregarious Gardnerian fantasy.

Item: Actual witches do NOT consider themselves "pagans". It's their religion, and they don't consider it in Christian terms. It is not defined, to them, by Christians.

Item: She admits that Dianic witchcraft came out of the Women's Liberation movement. That right there is an admission that it doesn't trace all the way back to Ye Olde Days of real life witchery.

Item: I redacted her actual birthdate in the interest of not posting personally identifiable information. She was likely attempting to correlate her birth with the 17th anniversary of the founding of her "religion", but apparently did not realize that I know what that actual date was, and she was several days off.

Item: Real witches do not have "covens", and therefore do not have "high priestesses". That is, again, another Gardnerian concept. I think she may have been trying to intimidate me, but without realizing that I can't be intimidated by "high priestesses" playing at being witches - I've known the real deal. I think, rather, that had she known anything about me, then perhaps THEY would be intimidated. I don't burn witches, but I can sure as hell set them down and make them get quiet. I've done it. One of them once told me that I have "The Gift", whatever that is. She didn't elaborate since I didn't express any interest in learning to "work the roots" or dance naked in the moonlight with her.

So no, I didn't have any further questions - that post told me everything I needed to know. I responded so:

Quote:Nope, that covered it, and told me all I need to know. Thank you.

She's playing at being a "witch", is in reality a "Barnes and Noble Witch", and no real danger to anyone other than herself.

Like my step-daughter mentioned above. She was warned by both myself and her mother that she was playing with things she did not understand and would likely get burnt, but she ignored us, with predictable results. She invited things she did not understand into her world, things she had NO idea how to get rid of, and is probably still being plagued by them to this day. The first two or 3 times she did that, I got rid of those "things" in the interest of preserving a happy home, but I finally got tired of it, realized she would never learn her lesson, and let them have her. Hell, they weren't bothering ME, so why not? Folks gotta learn some way, if they ever can, and I was probably doing her a disservice by intervening to begin with.

lessons learned:

1) There are real, actual witches.

2) Barnes and Noble witches are not among them, but are easily recognized and differentiated - and often a danger to themselves.

3) Playing with things you know nothing about will end poorly, and there are those around who don't even care what you do to yourself. Those folks will eventually stop protecting you and let the wolves eat you.

4) Barnes and Noble witches still piss me off. They, and indeed all Gardnerians, are polluting what was once an honorable tradition.

" I don't mind killin' a man in a fair fight... or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight... or if there's money involved... or a woman... "

 - Jayne Cobb, Hero of Canton
Yes, that's all very interesting, but the burning question everyone here on Rogue Nation wish an answer to is:
Even though you said you had no interest in it, did you dance naked in the wood with this female?

Seriously though, I was reading this from Wikipedia's 'Etymology of Wicca' and probing it's links.

Etymology of Wicca:

'...The inclusive use of the term Wicca—referring to the entirety of Pagan Witchcraft religion—has been traced to Britain
in the early 1960s, when it was used by various groups and publicised through use in adverts, magazines, and other
literary sources.

It was later adopted by figures like Alex Sanders and Gavin and Yvonne Frost, who took it to the United States.
There, practitioners of British Traditional Wicca adopted it exclusively for themselves as a means to differentiate their
practices from those of other Pagan Witches.

This exclusive meaning was countered by its popularisation as a generic term by prolific authors such as Raymond Buckland,
Scott Cunningham and Silver RavenWolf. As it entered popular culture, it gained an increasingly eclectic character in its usage.
During the 1990s, some attempted to distance themselves from it by utilising the term Traditional Witchcraft...'

Alex Sanders (born (1926 died 1988)
'... who went under the craft name Verbius, was an English occultist and High Priest in the Pagan religion of Wicca, responsible
for founding the tradition of Alexandrian Wicca during the 1960s.'

Yvonne Frost (born 1931)
'A Wiccan author, lecturer, and practitioner from Los Angeles.
Together with her late husband Gavin Frost, she founded the Church and School of Wicca in 1968.'

Raymond Buckland (born 1934 died 2017)
'...whose craft name was Robat, was an English writer on the subject of Wicca and the occult, and a significant figure in the history
of Wicca, of which he was a high priest in both the Gardnerian and Seax-Wica traditions.
According to his written works, primarily Witchcraft from the Inside, published in 1971, he was the first person in the United States
to openly admit to being a practitioner of Wicca...'

Scott Cunningham (born 1956 died 1993)
Author. The date of his birth says everything.

Silver RavenWolf -Jenine E. Trayer (born 1956)
An American New Age, Magic and Witchcraft author and lecturer who focuses on Wicca.

The thing is -as you've pointed out, this 'religion' isn't very old, although it seems an ideal faith for the sixties in California!
An author can basically write anything as the Wiccan craze grew back then, but I suppose it's a unique harmless way of
meeting women.
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(07-26-2019, 09:38 PM)BIAD Wrote: Yes, that's all very interesting, but the burning question everyone here on Rogue Nation wish an answer to is:
Even though you said you had no interest in it, did you dance naked in the wood with this female?

A gentleman never tells...

Quote:The thing is -as you've pointed out, this 'religion' isn't very old, although it seems an ideal faith for the sixties in California!
An author can basically write anything as the Wiccan craze grew back then, but I suppose it's a unique harmless way of
meeting women.

Indeed - an added bonus is the women you meet are in the moonlight, and already naked!

What passes for wicca these days really isn't very old, at all. Now, all religions had to begin somewhere (the cult of Zeus was born around 5000 years ago in northern Greece, probably as an ancestor worship of a mortal human who later became deified - so there was a time when even ancient Greek religion was brand-spankin' new), so that's not an absolute bar, but they've co-opted the name and place of an already existent religion, and made stuff up on the fly and referred to their fantasies as "traditions", as if they have a much longer history than they actually do. In short, they are trying to replace, remake, and reform something that is not theirs to screw with.

It would be the same thing if I declared myself a Muslim, then wrote a book about our Islamic traditions of eating an entire pig on Thursdays, starting with the tail and ending with the snout... or if I were to declare myself a Christian, then write a book expositing our traditional habit of having orgies in the church basement on the second Tuesday of every month, or if I declared myself a Buddhist and then wrote a book about our main religious objective to rid the world of all life... It ain't right, and it flies in the face of the Leftist gripes that folks are appropriating the cultures of others. That is PRECISELY what these "wiccans" are doing, even though the vast majority of them ARE left-wingers!

As far as I can tell, ALL modern "wiccans" are Gardnerian, despite their attempts to distance themselves by using terms like "Seax-wicca". Almost all ancient cultures in both the old world and the new had witches, albeit with different practices, and "wicca" was the term used by Saxons for their own witches. Therefore, "Seax-wicca" would be closest to correct(except that a "seax" or "sceax" was just a really big knife, not a nationality), and except that it has no concept of actual Saxon wicca. So modern wiccans are employing a term for a particular form of witchery, but culling their practices from other forms (predominantly Celtic it appears) with some Catholic Christianity thrown on for a ceremonial flavor... and then there is the other "stuff" they practice and write about, which is wholly imaginary, the product of fertile, but diseased, minds. I believe one of your references spoke of their similarity to Druidism, albeit of the modern variety (which is not really Drudic, either), which serves to show how they try to steal OTHER religions to incorporate into their own.

While most modern "wiccan covens" are pretty eclectic, Dianic Wicca is not. It is tailor-made for hagged out Feminist husks of what used to pass as "female", before their disease took them. Other "covens" worship a duality, a "horned" god and a "moon" goddess... Dianics do not. They worship ONLY a female deity. Other "wiccans" have both male and female membership and hierarchy. Dianics do not. they are exclusively female, and do not admit male members (oh, that "male members" didn't sound good, did it? - No matter, they don't admit those either). Dianics worship 20th century Feminism pretty much, personified as a "goddess", and co-opting the names of ancient goddesses to try to gain some legitimacy. They are becoming a haven for lesbians to have get-togethers. One of their main ritual focuses is to "purge themselves of the Patriarchy".

In contrast, the witches I've known do not limit themselves to 2 deities - they have main deities - sometimes more, sometimes fewer - and a plethora of "spirit forces" for lack of a better term. Actual witches do not deny the duality of human kind, and are inclusive of both genders as necessary for the continuance and quality of life. They also are not as rigidly ritualistic as "wiccans". I never knew one to possess an athame, for instance, or find one necessary or even useful for much of anything other than self-defense. They certainly don't use such ritually. I've never heard of one having a "craft name". They don't need robes - they wear what they wear, or not, as the occasion may arise. They do not write books to pass on their knowledge - it is passed down only by the spoken word, never the written. It's my understanding that it's done that way for the same reasons that it was done that way millennia ago - so that outsiders could not co-opt the religion, or gain access to any "power" they might have, and so that the uninitiated would not injure themselves by trying to do things or interact with the spirit world in ways that they were absolutely not ready for.

Nowdays, anyone can just "buy the book" and presto! they're a "witch"!

All in all, I have no real gripes with wiccans EXCEPT their attempts to co-opt a religion that is far older, and far different, than what they are attempting to reform it into. If they'd rename themselves to something else (something like "New Age Hex-Tossers" would work fine, and be descriptive, too!), more in line with their newly invented religion, so as not to be trying to remake what is not theirs to remake, I'd have no gripes at all.

" I don't mind killin' a man in a fair fight... or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight... or if there's money involved... or a woman... "

 - Jayne Cobb, Hero of Canton
An excellent view of how the Wiccan doctrine makes a fine vehicle for those who see the world through a particular lens.

I took a wander around the internet and perused the sites of traditional Wicca and its short evolution into something I was
vaguely aware of, but had never given it any focus. It seems that the belief system -as you pointed towards, has strong
connections with female empowerment via sentimental wordplay and astute biased-correlation of rational contemplation.

Don't get me wrong, I'd have been a mould-covered corpse in a gutter somewhere if it hadn't been for the woman currently
sat across from me and to say I should exalt her is certainly not enough, I simply worship her.

Men -real normal men, know the truth and no amount of satin-lined robes, copper bracelets to indicate one's grade in the
sect, embossed bound books and fat-assed candles can epitomise the female's role in who we are as a species.
In fact it's degrading to single women in out in this fashion. Yes, the Wiccan credo ‘harm none and do thy will’ makes sense
and should be left at that.
(Forgive my rant!)

Today, there seems to be a strong -but limited, urge to align traditional Wicca with something known as 'Progressive Wicca'.
A movement that in my opinion, involves assuring the interested that self-developing of one's spiritual strengths isn't enough
and that being one with nature, appreciating the mysterious side of reality and seeking harmony, are merely the mild-side of
Wicca is all about.

It seems that protests against exploitation of nature are welcomed, co-acting certain political attitudes in a style of 'mindset
-matchmaking' are common and that old favourite, purchasing favoured books that endorse a particular way of looking at
first-world societies is strenuously advocated.

Of course, not to stray too far from the conventional 'normie' concept of modern Wicca, words like 'Dragon, Silver Wheel,
Magic' and 'coven' are regularly sprinkled amongst a narrative that began about inner-self-development and shrewdly move
into opinions on the mismanaging of the planet with mild 'suggestions' regarding opposition.

A quote from a defunct magazine, Dragon's Brew:

Quote:"Progressive Wicca is a movement which spans the traditions and emphasises networking, closeness to nature,
personal growth and co-operative development.

Personal experience of other paths is welcomed and integrated into covens, and we do not slavishly follow a Book
of Shadows, as we see Wicca as an ever growing religion and the Book of Shadows changes and grows with each
new Witch."

Contact details for a number of covens were given in the back of each issue of the magazine.
The editorial stance of the magazine was actively supportive of environmental protection, detailing protests, distributing
leaflets and supporting organisations like Dragon (eco-magick environmental network) and Friends of the Earth Cymru
in their actions.

Campaigns like the ones to save Oxleas Wood and Twyford Down were covered, as well as events in other parts of the
world, like proposed wolf culling in Canada, tiger conservation in India, and anti-nuclear testing by the French in the Pacific...'

But there's another side to this co-opted New-Age religion that seems to entwined -vine-like with what most outsiders would
perceive as a harmless faith of appreciating nature. I kept on looking around and found this site which comments on a one-time
friend of Gerald Gardner. An interesting man called Cecil Williamson.

Here's what Williamson -the once-owner of 'The Museum of Witchcraft and Magic' in Cornwall, UK, said in regards of Gerald

"A vain, self-centred man, tight with his money, and more interested in outlets for his nudist
and voyeuristic acivities, than in learning about authentic witchcraft."

Cecil Williamson was assisted by Gardner when a version of the museum existed in The Isle of Man back in 1951 and what
I found fascinating -a trail that I will look at later, is that Cecil Williamson was hired by MI6 in 1938 to look into Nazi's occult
interests, presumably in Britain.

Wikipedia says about this:

Quote:'..In 1938, MI6 hired Williamson to investigate the Nazi's occult interests, and in doing so he formed
the Witchcraft Research Center. An April 1944 news report, while not mentioning the Witchcraft Research
Center, reflects their area of expertise in claiming Goebbels was going to 'harness fortune telling, astrology,
and necromancy to his propaganda machine'...'

I know I'm straying from the thread subject, but Cecil Williamson was heavily involved in the British movie business, which
is said to be a propaganda machine itself! I can't help thinking of Angela Lansbury's character in 'Bedknobs And Broomsticks',
a witch in a small English village performing magic in order to thwart an invading Nazi menace!!

But getting back to Gardner and Williamson's comment about him...
couldn't this really be just about a way for an old man of seeing women naked?!

Edit: Here's an interview with Gardner.

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We have Wiccans and Witches, one is different from the other, I believe, but they came together because they are not Smart Enough the Think For Themselves and not allow the MSM to control their thoughts.

Quote:Comprised of at least 13,000 neo-pagans, Wiccans, and witches, the group holds monthly gatherings to cast spells on the president.
These meetings sometimes consist of simply joining an internet chat room, but the Magic Resistance movement has also organized numerous in-person gatherings. On every waning crescent moon, at the stroke of midnight, they channel their collective energy to cast a “binding” spell on the president – an attempt to limit his power and, they hope, eventually get him removed from office.

I would have to question any Cult that attempts to use magic to Control Another Person's Thoughts and Actions.
Especially the POTUS!
If you want to know just how these peoples minds are Corrupted by the MSM just listen to her reasons for casting a Spell on our President.

 Way didn't her group cast a spell on Bush or Obama? Because She Is Ignorant!

Quote:Speaking with Marlow, Nash claimed, “You’ve got the basic things like the Etsy stores, the Witchsy stores, where they link feminist issues with witchcraft and Wicca and there’s other kind of occult symbols, but then you also have these groups of people who are actually trying to hex the president.”

According to Nash, feminist witches are joining together against Trump and are building elaborate “altars and tables with candles and pentagrams,” to create an “almost—a sense of sisterhood.”

Is it Really a Sense Of Sisterhood, that feeling you get when trying to cast a spell on the POTUS?
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Once A Rogue, Always A Rogue!
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